Abigail James (@abigailjames1) is an A-list facialist, well-being expert and author. She is widely known in London as ‘the queen of skin’ and the ‘priestess of facial massage’ and is one of the most sought-after skincare experts of the British Capital.
Abigail’s YouTube tutorials have been a huge hit, with some of the videos garnering nearly 6.5 million views.
In our interview, the single mother of three talks to Anne about her journey, from working for her father’s food business to her start in training as a milliner before she switched to study to become a beauty therapist. Abigail had the chance to find her way to Lady Bamford’s organic wellness space in the Cotswolds, which was an important stepping stone in her career.
In addition, the talented facialist, who’s also trained as a yoga teacher, shares the successes and the emotional ups and downs in her journey, or ‘mental health tweaks’ as she calls them. Of course, Abigail talks about the art of face massage, its physical benefits, and the power of positive touch, as well.
When it comes to looking after our skin, Abigail affirms that education is important. And indeed, knowledge is power — both on the product side but also in understanding the underlying tissues, muscles and bones.
The woman who’s been named by the press as a ‘skin genius’ doesn’t just use a holistic approach, she also loves to use what technology can offer, relying on safe and advanced tools that support her clients for treatments that are completely bespoke.
Anne and Abigail discuss the pressures of being online, with Abigail in front of the camera herself, as well as what she sees as trends in the tweakments space. The interview ends with Abigail sharing insights from her new book, “The Glow Plan”, and describing her life philosophy — break down, dust yourself off and try again!
A moving, inspiring, and very joyful interview. Happy listening!
Selected links from episode
You can find Abigail at: AbigailJames.com
On Instagram @abigailjames1
On Youtube
On Facebook Abigail James London
On TikTok –
On Twitter @abigail_James
Abigail’s books – The Glow Plan and Love Your Skin
Beauty NVQ2 and NVQ 3 – what is an NVQ course UK
Lady Bamford on Wikipedia
Bamford in the Cotswolds
Coworth Park, a Dorchester Collection Hotel –
Francesca White, Tatler’s beauty director
Grace Belgravia wellness club
Liz Earle Skincare
Burnout, a book by Emily and Amelia Nagoski
Emily & Amelia Nagoski interviewed by Brené Brown
Rise Up, the song by Andra Day
Full episode transcript
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Hi. Hello. Bonjour, and namaste. This is Out Of The Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness. And I’m your host Anne Muhlethaler. Today my guest is Abigail James. Abigail is a facialist and author, widely known particularly in London for being the queen of skin also called the high priestess of facial massage.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
She’s one of the most sought after skincare experts and also a single mother of three. And I have to tell you, her story is really quite remarkable. I had the pleasure of being introduced to her in London a few months ago this year. And so she shares with me her wonderful and rather epic story. Of course we talk about the art of face massage, it’s physical benefits, her holistic approach, but she also talks about the benefits of up and coming technology that she likes to use to support her clients in whatever it is that they’re seeking in their treatments with her.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
We also talk about yoga because very randomly, if you believe in coincidences, it so happens that a few years apart, both of us certified as yoga teachers with the same teacher, although in different locations. Abigail talks as well about the pressure of being online and having a large following, especially on YouTube.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
She tells me all about her new book, The Glow Plan, and many of the projects that she has under her belt. Towards the end of the interview I ask her, as I ask all of my guests my favorite questions, and she left me laughing so hard at the question about what is most embarrassing moment that you can share with us. I still laughed while editing it I have to tell you. I am incredibly grateful to have met Abigail and to have had the chance not once but twice to chat to her and to dig into her story, her method, her ethos.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And then I’m really excited to be bringing you this long, wide ranging and hopefully both insightful and very entertaining interview. So without further ado, I hope you enjoy my interview with Abigail James. Abigail, welcome to Out Of The Clouds. Thank you so much for being here today.
Abigail James:
It’s a pleasure. It’s an absolute pleasure to be here.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
How are you doing and where am I finding you this afternoon?
Abigail James:
Okay, so I’m doing fine. I’m actually sat in my bedroom. I’m now working from home and I actually thought because we are recording this, I need some cloth and fabric around me to make the sound a little bit better. I’ve literally come and shut myself away in the bedroom with the dog so that we can make this work.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh, that’s awesome. Thank you so much. You’re a very thoughtful guest. No one has ever done that before. I now have different expectations for the rest of my guests.
Abigail James:
There we go.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Interesting. I like to invite my guests to tell their story very freely. To give you a little bit of context, I think that a lot of people now use podcasting as a method to promote projects and books or courses. And I like to go against the grain and really go for story first and get to know people a little bit better before we talk about all of the things that we do. Now, you have a particularly interesting story, which I already know about. I’m going to give it to you to tell our guests who you are.
Abigail James:
Okay. Let’s start with I suppose who I am and what I do. My name is Abigail James. I’m known as a skincare and wellbeing expert. I’ve been given the moniker of the queen of skin. Fundamentally as my father tells me, I rub faces for a living. It’s a little bit more complex than that. I suppose that’s me now. I’ve just published my second book and I’m not going to go into promotion because that’s not what we’re doing. We’re talking about life story.
Abigail James:
I’ve had my hands on numerous faces, thousands of faces to be honest, as well as some famous faces. But my journey hasn’t been that conventional. I got married very young. I was 22 when I physically got married and we had quite a religious upbringing. So the marriage was something that was, I don’t know, it was kind of put into you that that’s what you do as a woman, it’s marriage, kids and the kitchen sink kind of thing.
Abigail James:
But after I had my first child at 23, I had quite severe postnatal depression, which I knew very early on that something was wrong, but there was a lot of life, things that I suppose built up to that as well as quite a traumatic birth. However, the job that I was doing, which was in my father’s company, which is frozen foods. Because that’s what I was told I was going to do. I just didn’t have the mental capacity to go back to the work that I was doing. I needed to do something and I tried a few different courses. I think I mentioned to you that I became a milliner.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yes, I love that.
Abigail James:
But realized that actually I probably couldn’t make much of a living out of being a milliner. And one of my friends at the time, she was a beauty therapist and she would come around, she’d paint my nails, give me some treatments, a bit of a spray tan. And I just loved what she did. And that then got me thinking, okay, actually I’d like to become a beauty therapist. I found myself going to night school two nights a week for two years to get my beauty NVQ two.
Abigail James:
I just felt like it was my comfort zone. It all came reasonably easy to me. And I remember my mother telling me, “Gosh, you just stand out amongst the other therapists. I knew you’d make yourself something of yourself.” I wasn’t doing it thinking, right, I can make some money out of this because beauty therapists are bottom rank. it’s not a well-paid industry. But I found myself then two children in, as a single parent of two, and I had to kind of go next level with, okay, I’m suddenly now got to keep the roof over our head and put food on the table because I actually found myself on benefits. During the divorce process we lost everything.
Abigail James:
I went to college full time for a whole year to then get my beauty NVQ three. During that time I was working a Saturday job in the local salon or there was a little spa that opened up. This was back in Worcestershire near Cheltenham, Worcestershire that kind of area. The weekends that I didn’t have my children, I was either working or continuing to study and that was my life. I wasn’t financially in a place to have a social life or even entertaining the kids at that point in my life. We’d go to the Dogs Trust and look at the dogs because it was free.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Clever. Very clever.
Abigail James:
Resourceful. So then I suppose knock it on a few years, there’s another child, another failed relationship. And I found myself as a single parent of three children, which I don’t think that story is anything new or crazy. There’s numerous ladies that have found themselves in that situation. But I was just desperate not to be stuck in the benefits bracket and because I’d got three children, I couldn’t earn enough in any job to even pay the childcare. I was forced into being a little bit self-employed or jobbing. But I managed to get a part-time job for someone called Lady Bamford, and she has this place-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Of course.
Abigail James:
… in the Cotswolds.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, I’ve been.
Abigail James:
Have you?
Anne V Muhlethaler:
It’s beautiful. It’s absolutely amazing. Yeah.
Abigail James:
It’s just like nothing else, just plunked in the middle of the field.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, exactly.
Abigail James:
And back then I was the only British therapist on her therapist team when I joined. I mean, now it’s so much bigger than it ever was then. But she would generally collect her therapist from around the world on her travels and they might come and join her. I had to be actually interviewed by Lady B. I had to have the sign off and the fact that I was British was not going in my favor, but I was told I was going to be given a chance.
Abigail James:
I spent, I could say 18 months, you just have to prove yourself. And I just loved the environment that I was in. I was learning so much from the other therapists there as well. Behind the scenes in between client bookings, they’d be teaching me Thai and Ayurvedic methods.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Amazing.
Abigail James:
Yeah. It was really quite special and unique to be honest. During my therapy time doing facials, this is kind of previous back in the high street salons, I was actually, and this is quite key to my own therapist journey and where I kind of sit now with how I choose brands and things that I want to work with. I was actually finding … because if you go to a high street salon, they’ll stock a brand, it might be a French skincare brand or it’s a well-known brand usually.
Abigail James:
And I was finding that as I was treating people’s skin, I could see the skin reacting in a bad way, so it made me question very early on in my career, I have a responsibility of what I’m applying to these people’s faces. I went down the rabbit hole of going totally organic, totally natural. I trained as a Dr. Hauschka Aesthetician.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh, amazing. I love that brand. Back then they were really quite unique. They’ve got a little bit out of bogue, but back then there wasn’t much choice in organic and natural. That was another little thing that probably got me through the door at Lady Bamford’s place because they stocked Dr. Hauschka. And there weren’t many hauschka aestheticians.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
But during my time there there’d be the occasional skincare brand that would try and get into the [inaudible 00:10:53] and want to be stocked there. And there was one in particular that I don’t know how we actually connected, but they said, “Look, we haven’t got any treatments of our own. Could you design us a treatment menu.” As in a facial, a body treatment, that type of thing.
Abigail James:
Amazing.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
So I did, never done it before and I was very much, “Let’s give it a go.” And then suddenly they’re stocked in one of the new Dorchester’s, Coworth Park. I find myself training therapists at Coworth Park. And then they were also stocked in a place in Primrose Hill. It’s not there anymore, it was so cold. It’s called Lost in Beauty.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And then Georgina, who owned Lost in Beauty. She said, “Look, do you just want to come down and do a popup day here?” And I was like, “I’ll give it a go.” So once a month I’d jump on a train down to London and rub some faces and do my thing in London. And that’s where I started building up a little bit of a London connection. Another skincare brand got hold of me and they asked me to do the same for them. I’m suddenly training therapists in Hong Kong, in [inaudible 00:12:07].
Abigail James:
Wow.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
All through this time I was still just a single mom of three kids struggling to keep the roof over our heads. But I used to play on the fact I’m from the Cotswolds. I think everybody has this image of where you might live, what your house looks like if you live in the Cotswolds.
Abigail James:
Yeah, I see that.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I mean, I’m guessing you’ve got that image in your head already.
Abigail James:
Well, I’ve been to your friend’s house that was just a small cottage.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, I didn’t even have that small cottage.
Abigail James:
Sure.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
People have that perception. I was just going with it. And early on in my career, I’ve not told many people this, I’d even pretend I’d have a separate email address for clinic, which-
Abigail James:
So smart.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. And, oh, I’ll get my PA to email you and literally switch to the other email like, “Hello, Abigail’s asked me to email you.”
Abigail James:
I mean, you got to do what you got to do.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
You do, don’t you?
Abigail James:
Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
One of my Cotswolds ladies, her son was setting up a gym in Fulham and it was on the Fulham road. And he’d got treatment rooms and she was like, “You’ve got to meet my Johnny.” Suddenly I then had a regular location in London to be popping in and out of to do clients. And interestingly, so the current beauty director of Tatler, she’s called Francesca White, she’s lovely. I gave her her first ever facial.
Abigail James:
Oh, I think I read her quote on your website actually.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, possibly.
Abigail James:
You’d occasionally try and get her … back then one of the beauty editors or something in for a treatment, and we’d managed to occasionally get, I can’t remember who it was, it might have been Olivia Falcon. Anyway, she was always way too busy. And she’d literally send the intern, which at time was Francesca. And I think I must have met Francesca for her first facial and then probably two or three other occasions later. And she’s like, “Sorry, it’s me again.”
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That’s amazing.
Abigail James:
But now she is the beauty director. That’s a big lesson that, hey, it doesn’t matter who walks through the door, they might not have the big title now, but who knows where their career is going to be.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh my God, yeah. So much.
Abigail James:
Building relationships and actually our career paths, we’ve both grown up in industry together.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Of course.
Abigail James:
So then I always found as my career progressed, the opportunities would find me at a time where I was probably thinking, oh my goodness, I don’t know how I’m going to keep making this work. And then when you’re least expecting, it’s something, another opportunity, there are lots of carrots that have been dangled throughout my career and you do learn the good carrots and the ones that really aren’t going to come to anything.
Abigail James:
But there was a friend of a friend who she’d heard of me, my facials and what I was doing. And she was setting up a women’s only private members club in London Belgravia. And she wanted someone to help set up the spa side of things. I went along and met her and it’s just the most amazing … it’s not there anymore, it’s called Grace Belgravia. But I then found myself, I could move my private client base to there. And at the club there was the Queen’s doctor, Dr. Tim, who was overseeing the medical practice. And at this point I’m still winging it in the Cotswolds as a single mom.
Abigail James:
And I was then recruiting therapists. I was helping with the manuals and everything to do with setting up that spa. And that was a big enough gig for me to think, okay, I’ve got enough of a regular income here. So I made the decision to … because I was commuting away from the kids. We were eating pears for breakfast.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Of course.
Abigail James:
It was so stressful. I’d be up at 4:00 in the morning to get a train into London and not getting back until gone midnight or crashing on someone. Looking back I don’t know how I did it. And my kids at the time, I’m just trying to think how old they’d have been. My youngest was probably about six, so they were young. It came to the point of I either pack this in or kids were moving. And I was still at a point where I didn’t have anything to lose. So even if I moved and it didn’t work out, well, I’ve not lost anything because I didn’t have anything.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Sure.
Abigail James:
It took me over half a year to find schools for each of the kids in the state system. And obviously when you’re moving to London, London’s a huge place. I’d go and again the weekends that I didn’t have the children I’d go and investigate a different area of London. And I settled on this one particular area and found great state schools for all of them. However, until you are in an address, you can’t be given a school place.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh man, that is too stressful for words.
Abigail James:
Tell me about it. I had to find a house that would still accept a certain amount of benefits payment in a private rental, because most of them won’t. And then I had to find a house within catchment of the schools that I was trying to get them into. Again, a wing and a prayer and the day that I physically moved, I drove a white transit van and borrowed my dad’s sheep trailer.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That’s hilarious.
Abigail James:
And actually my ex-partner, he was driving another transit van. So we literally rocked up in this very lovely area really with a sheep trailer. The neighbors must have been like, “Holy moly, who is this?” But on the day of us actually moving, I didn’t have guaranteed spaces for any of them. And I think it was like September the second, school was due to start. But again, luck fell in my lap for the two boys and we literally got the phone call, right, let’s get uniform into school the next day.
Abigail James:
My daughter was at home for two weeks without school. And I was thinking, what have I done? I was having to go to work because I was still trying to do that. But after two weeks we managed to get her, again it was just one of those phone calls, you won’t believe this, a space has come up. It was an all girls state school. And it’s just been amazing for her. I mean, she’s now 23. There was all of that going on while I was building my career.
Abigail James:
And then I was approached by Liz Earle skin care. They were looking for an ambassador. And the lovely Ashling who was looking after their PR at the time, she booked herself in for a facial. I didn’t know. It was just a person who’d booked in for a facial. And afterwards she said, “So I’ve been following your career, and Liz Earle, blah, blah, blah. And you are the only one on the list.” So we’d like to speak to you. I became an ambassador for them for a number of years and I found myself on QVC and doing lots of events for them, so that was quite a special time.
Abigail James:
And then I became an ambassador when that kind of ran its course for rituals, which you’re a global company, they’re huge in Europe, huge. Their head offices are in Amsterdam. So they were sending me all around the world for these press events and doing facials on press and VIP. I think there was one particular launch we did. Over a three month period I think I did 12 countries. It was insane, but I was still being mum and got my own client base, but you just do it. As these opportunities crop up, you just do it. I suppose then just pre COVID, I feel like I’ve got on a lot about my journey. I’m sorry. I’ll stop talking in a moment.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
No, it’s fascinating.
Abigail James:
Pre COVID I was based at The Beaumont Hotel, which is in Mayfair. And I was there for a number of years.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Such a gorgeous place.
Abigail James:
Isn’t it? It’s lovely. Proper kind of it’s got that old school Brit 1920s, ’30s, feel to it. And that was just brilliant, it was great. And then COVID happened and obviously our industry took a bit of a beating as did many. The hotel decided to close to do a refurb, so I couldn’t go back there even when our industry could go back.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh wow. That’s tough.
Abigail James:
Yeah, it was challenging. But I’ve set up a private clinic, which touch wood is going brilliantly. I might go back into central London. I think with many people COVID has allowed me time to reflect on the business model and the life and the stress and everything. And I’m determined not to go back to the work pattern I was in pre COVID because that really wasn’t serving me and my health. So yeah, throwing two books, lots of other ambassador bits and pieces and social media. And that’s kind of a little bit of the journey kind of condensed.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Wow. First of all, what I want to say is, I mean, awe of what you’ve achieved. And because we’ve already had a conversation when we met in person in London a few weeks ago, I can just reflect back to you that you did this while being a mom and your kids seem to be beautifully balanced, happy, healthy, gorgeous human beings, so congratulations.
Abigail James:
Thank you.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Congratulations, because this feels very touching.
Abigail James:
What I didn’t realize early on while I was hustling or the realization that I felt I was on this journey and I didn’t acknowledge quite so much that they’re on this journey. We moved, rented houses, I don’t know, 10 times. The boys never had their own bedroom that they could actually decorate, simple. I know that’s a modern day thing that everybody should be able to do that. But I know I had that as a child and when you have children, I had certain things.
This upbringing that they’ve had was nowhere on my dream list of how I intended to bring them up. And I’ve definitely beaten myself up over the years. I still don’t have a mortgage, or I don’t have a property. And I know I’m often asked, “Oh, my goodness.” Or, “You’re so successful.” But we have different perceptions of what success is-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Of course.
Abigail James:
… and for me, it’s being on the property ladder. And it doesn’t matter how many celebrities I’ve rubbed faces, or books, or whatever, there are certain things, I still beat myself up, that I couldn’t give my children that stable- No, it was emotionally stable, but that physical home. I struggled with myself with that. A Lot of guilt involved in that. However, when I look at my three kids, they’re all very unique characters. They’re all very mature. They’re fun loving. I could put them into a room, I could take them to a work event, a press event and I know that I could go off and do my thing. They could hold their own in conversation with anybody in that room. That probably comes from getting through so many au pairs that couldn’t speak their language.
Abigail James:
I’ll tell you a story. We had one au pair. She’s called Cleo. She was great, but she would request these like monthly family meetings and she’d arrive with a clipboard, with a list of things that the kids had done wrong. It was hilarious. Brilliant. Whereas others? Well, I had one, she was sneaking a boyfriend in the downstairs window and he was sleeping in the house without me knowing. There’d be food going missing out the house because they’re feeding their friends. Honestly, the kids will go, “Do you remember that one, Mum?” So I think without any intention, I actually think the upbringing they’ve had, has allowed them that social maturity. There’s probably been lots of time where, as the three, even though there has been an au pair at home, they’ve been parenting themselves, even though there’s another adult in the place.
Abigail James:
But they’ve all got their feet on the ground. Yes, my daughter loves to get her hair and nails done and a bit of glam, but hey, if all that goes tomorrow, she’s cool. I think that’s quite a life skill to have. But what’s very interesting, my youngest, he’s now 16, if you ask him what he wants to do with his life, genuinely, I’ve heard him say this to people numerous times. They’re like, “Oh, what do you want to do when you’re older?” “Oh, I don’t know. I just don’t want to be poor.” He’s almost like, “Yeah, we’ve been there. We’ve done that. I’m over that.” But I feel he’s going to do well, if that’s his benchmark, whether he’s packing fish or cleaning bins or working in a bank, that’s his benchmark and that’s quite good.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. Like you said, I think it sounds like he’s got his feet on the ground.
Abigail James:
Yes. Yeah. They all do. Hey, none of them are angels. I think that’s another thing as a parent, is that you can’t excuse your kids. This is another thing. If there was a situation at school, I’d be the parent going in, “Right, what have you done?” Rather than defending my children, I’d always almost presume they’ve had something to do with this. But again, I think that’s very healthy. But I’m very much, who knows what any of my kids are going to do when they’re older. I don’t think any of them are going to follow me into the skincare industry. That’s OK.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Maybe entrepreneur, who knows?
Abigail James:
Maybe entrepreneurship, so interesting. I’m often asked, because I’m in the beauty, the skin industry, all about aesthetics and how someone looks. I’ve definitely gone out of my way for that not to be a big thing at home. Yes, I’ve got a social media presence and yes, there’s selfies and this and that on my social, as well as in my family with the children. That isn’t important. And I think that is also really important for kids and teens to have that education, that how you look, it shouldn’t impact on how you progress in life or how you feel about yourself. I know that’s a challenging topic and a big topic all on its own.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh God. Yeah. Absolutely.
Abigail James:
Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
But it’s interesting because actually, it leads me to a question I wanted to ask you, which I feel is connected to what I’ve read of you, on your website, and also from various articles that I looked up. For you, if I’m correct, skin care is self-care. So it’s not about how you look, but it’s how you feel?
Abigail James:
So yes, absolutely. However, skin care is there to regenerate, to fix skin issues, concerns, because skin isn’t just all about the, “Oh, my goodness. She looks amazing.” You might have acne, eczema, psoriasis, inflammation, whatever it might be, and you can do a lot with skin care and treatments and nutrition and everything else. That lifestyle is really important. But I can’t forget the rejuvenation and I was just going to say, the age prevention rather than anti-age, or the aging well that definitely comes from good skin care. But skin care is also part of self-care. I think that’s a really important angle. I’ve touched on it briefly. I’ve had some emotional ups and downs and mental health tweaks, should we say, throughout my life, as I’m sure many people have. And sometimes going back to your routines and things that make you feel good, not just look good, are good for the mind and soul. So it can be combined. And I think that’s an important factor that needs considering.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. At which point, did you decide, or realize, that facial massage was your specialty?
Abigail James:
Good question. So I found early on in my career, whenever I did a treatment… Because I’m trained in body massage, sports injury, Thai Ayurveda, lots of muscle and tissue modalities, not just for the face, but whether I did a face or a body treatment, nine times out of 10, the comments or response I would get from the client were like, “Oh my goodness, I’ve never experienced anything like that before. That was amazing.” And I just thought that was normal and maybe them being polite.
Abigail James:
But going now through my career and training other therapists and experiencing treats and things, I realized that actually that’s not necessarily the norm. I suppose I found… I’m a creative. I trained as a milliner. That’s a creative thing, and I’m quite an arty person, even though I don’t do any art at the moment. But I found working with your hands, it’s a creative thing to do. And I suppose I developed this… I call it now, listening with your hands. So when I’m massaging someone, let’s say face, there’s just the intricacies of the tissue and everything that you are feeling with your hands, so you get the physical benefit, but there’s also a deeper emotional connection. And I’ve trained in so many different types of therapy and they all add up to what I do with my hands. I suppose, fundamentally, it was the comments and the feedback that I was getting from clients saying, “This is different.” And you go, “Okay, because I’m just doing my thing here.” I was just doing what felt natural.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That’s fascinating. So a few years ago, I realized that my two favorite things in the personal self-care space, is foot massage and face massage. Basically, both extremities make me equally happy or almost. So I feel particularly attuned to what I hear you described, because I think it’s one of the best things ever, because we don’t necessarily think or treat our face as we treat the rest of our body when it’s sore. We don’t think of the muscles. We don’t think of the tissues. So maybe this is a decent moment for a segue into the fact that, in the middle of it all, you have also trained as a yoga teacher.
Abigail James:
Yes.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Can you please tell us about how this came about for you?
Abigail James:
Okay. So I suppose you’ve probably got a picture that my career and personal life has been quite full on.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. I see that.
Abigail James:
Yeah. I’m the type of character that you just go, go, go, go, go, keep going, keep going, keep going. And I would definitely find, I would reach burnouts. And everybody goes, “Oh, you need to do yoga.” But I did. Especially with moving to London, you’ve got such a brilliant array of amazing yoga instructors and studios at your fingertips. And, because I was working long hours anyway, I actually thought, “If I jump into an hour’s yoga class, I wouldn’t have been getting home to tuck the kids in, anyway. So actually, if I can give myself this hour, hopefully it’s going to benefit myself.” So occasionally, I started dipping into yoga classes. And to start with, I was like, “I’m not sure I get this,” as I think many people do, until you try a different class, a different instructor, and then just… I can’t remember which particular instructor it was. But the studio was the Power Yoga Company, in Fulham. It’s in Parsons Green.
Abigail James:
And I just cried in the class, and I needed this physically, emotionally. There was just this massive release. And then I started feeling the benefits of yoga in a different way. I think I’d have probably always gone for the rocket classes, the ones where you really pushing yourself. But yoga became such a huge part of my regular weekly life. Again, if I didn’t have the children, if they were with their father, on the weekends I’d be going to yoga classes or… It just became part of me and I got so into it, that I thought, “I really want to know more for my own personal growth and also to help me better manage my stress, anxiety and everything else.” So I spent quite a bit of time and probably over a year or so. You’d look into it online. You’d Google how to become a yoga instructor. And none of it really resonated with me, until I came across this one. And it was called the Opening of the Heart. And I know we’ve had this conversation, which is the most interesting book in the world.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
[inaudible 00:35:33] So, hey listeners, just to let you know. Within five minutes of meeting Abigail, we figured out that we trained with the same yoga teacher to become certified, which is completely crazy. Except that, I did it in Ibiza and you did it in?
Abigail James:
In Clapham. In sunny Clapham.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
South London?
Abigail James:
Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
So how did you find Suzanne Faith, our teacher?
Abigail James:
Yeah. So the description of the course, it was Anusara yoga, which I’d never heard of before. But the way it was described as what was going to be included in the training, it just, cliche, resonated with me.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. Good copy, good message, clearly carries the intention of the teacher.
Abigail James:
Absolutely. So I would’ve loved to have done her training in Ibiza. However, with kids and everything else, I thought, “Okay, I can manage this in Clapham.” And I booked some time out of work to physically do this. And yes, it’s a huge commitment. It was the commute every day to the yoga studio and it was just a unique, challenging, physically, emotionally, mental brain power. Because I think a lot of people think, “Oh, it’s just yoga.” It’s so intense.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. I understand now, that they’re creating a container. That’s why we have such long hours and it’s back to back and it’s every day, because they want to create a change in the body and in the mind. And without that rhythm and that very sustained intensity, we wouldn’t be breaking through what we eventually do break through. Does that resonate with you too?
Abigail James:
Yeah, definitely. And there was a real mix of people on the training and some of them possibly like myself. I was there not with the intention to become a yoga instructor. It was more, me, in my journey. Whereas some were there, definitely that was their passion and what they wanted to do and everything in between. I think at some point during the [inaudible 00:37:59], all of us cried, at different points. It’s, “It’s part of the process, you got to break it down.”
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Uh-huh. A hundred per cent.
Abigail James:
Yeah, but it was this most unique time and experience. And I must admit while I was doing my yoga teacher training, I’d booked this time off and at one of my ambassadorial roles, I was called in. I haven’t shared this before. I was called in for a meeting at their head office and during that meeting, because I was so full of yoga and happiness and love, “Oh my goodness, this is amazing.” And I thought I was being called in to discuss an extension of this ambassadorial role. However, it was the most horrific meeting I was called into-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
No way.
Abigail James:
… and I won’t go into details. But it ended up, the rug was pulled from under me and some. And it ended up in court. Not in court, but with legal. Six months later I had an official apology from the brand. It was horrific and I can’t share anything more, because I’m signed to not sharing. But I can remember feeling at a point in my life, where I need the skills that I’ve been learning on this course, it’s now. And then I had to go back, literally that afternoon, and continue. And I was like, “This is bonkers.”
Abigail James:
But I was then into launching my first book about three months after, and all of this was still going on. And if I hadn’t got this core set of knowledge and skills that I’d learned, I genuinely don’t think I’d got through that mentally, emotionally, all of those things. So I’m a hugely, “Everything happens for a reason.” And the timing of things. And when I look back on it, it obviously just slotted in at that particular point, just certain things.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That’s fascinating. There’s one thing you said earlier, which resonates with me because it’s one of the ways… I identify as very resourceful and so do you. But I think that listening to you and thinking back to my own life, I think that by doing this course, you were accessing, or seeking out resources, you didn’t even know you’d need. But basically this was you, following your instinct, and grabbing the tools that are going to support you for the rest of your life.
Abigail James:
Yeah. Definitely. Without a shadow of a doubt.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. I did feel throughout the pandemic that I was so lucky. I felt so grateful for all of these things that I’d learned through the years of mindfulness, meditation and yoga pranayama, and actually self-massage and self-care. Because I had my own story of flirting with burnout for a while, and one of the ways-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And I didn’t know this until I heard the brilliant sisters Nagoski. I can’t remember. I think it’s Emily and Amelia, who wrote a book called Burnout, and I heard them talk on the Brené Brown podcast. And one of the two of them, I can’t remember which, explained that one of the ways you cannot beat burnout, but try to keep it at bay, is by doing anything that’s soothing. So all forms of massage, spa treatments, facials, even pedicures are ways to come back into your body, to look after yourself. And so, I now see maybe more than even before, why yoga was something that was a tie in, with what you already deliver for your clients.
Abigail James:
Definitely adds extra, for how I address and approach clients, as well as for myself. Interestingly, a knock-on from all of that, I ended up with a shoulder injury. And I think, it’s from a holistic point of view, it’s literally got the weight of the world on my shoulders and I couldn’t move my arm. It was that bad, so I’d learnt all these yoga skills, physically, and got to that super bendy place as you do, and then, I’d got this chunk of stress on a next level that had been thrown at me by this company. And then I had this injury with my arm, so I couldn’t physically practice the yoga, but I could go to the breath work, the meditation, and it forced me to slow down.
Abigail James:
There was a huge frustration on my part, because they had learned all of these extra physical skills and that’s where my passion was with yoga, and I suppose, the bendy bit that I loved. But I was being forced to really embrace these other parts. But during that time I was actually put on some pain medication, which ended up messing up my stomach lining, which threw me on a two year bad health. I was running off my adrenals. And it felt like an accumulation of my life so far and my body and whatever, just going, “Okay, you really need to start this shit now. You need to slow down. You really need to. And there’s been enough warnings. We warned you. You need to slow down.”
Abigail James:
And it’s not until your health starts degenerating to a point that you’re forced to that, “Hey, that learning, that I had during that yoga teacher training, where we can force you to really embrace this and utilize it.” So interesting at this point now, because I did my training in… I think it was 2016, ’17? So it feels like a quite a few years ago now. I don’t have the physical practice that I had before. I don’t. I still have the life skills and knowledge and I doubt I’ll ever get back to the physical practice that I did have. My body’s older now, I’m going through early menopause. It’s just a different vessel now, than it was back then.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. Fascinating. Thank you so much for sharing with me. So coming back to the massage part. That really, really interested me. I just wanted to congratulate you for a great Instagram post you did a few days ago, not long ago, where you were explaining or showing that the muscles of the face, technically don’t finish, don’t end at the jaw and you were showing techniques for massaging the neck. And me, and billions of other people have a lot of tension in our necks. So first of all, thank you, because what did I do as soon as I saw your post, but to go to my beauty cabinet, get a bottle of oil and start massaging.
Abigail James:
Brilliant.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
But I also love the fact that you overlaid some anatomy drawings to just at least help us reflect on the fact that we have so many huge, important muscles that hold our heads. And I’m not sure we are ever very conscious of how much they’re actually working for us. So I was wondering, in the work that you do with your clients as you support them, how important is education?
Abigail James:
I think education is really important. Knowledge is the cliche. Knowledge is power.
Yeah. And I think long gone of the days within the beauty industry of us being sold, “Hey, here’s a pot of cream, it smells like roses and it’s good for you.” And we used to go, “Oh my goodness, that’s amazing.” Whereas now, people are inquisitive. They do want to know what’s in a product, what it’s doing, what are the benefits. So that’s kind of product related. So I think there’s still a whole load of education on that side of things, but from a physical body point of view, yes, we’re treating the skin, but when we think of the aging process, it’s not just skin, we’ve got the underlying tissues, the muscles, the connective tissues, the bones start shrinking as we get older. There’s not much we can do about that. It’s multifaceted, it’s not just the very outer coating, from that side of things, the aging point of view. So I think when we look at a face, we see the skin, the smile, the eyes, and we forget what structures are underlying. I think anatomy and physiology photo of a face looks a bit scary so…
Anne V Muhlethaler:
The one that you chose was fine.
Abigail James:
Thank you.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Because I went on Google after and they were all terrible, and they were mostly men. I mean, I didn’t look very long, but it didn’t speak to me, yeah. It was fascinating.
Abigail James:
We forget that. I mean, just everything I’ve learned, even as the cliche beauty therapist, and then doing lots of other courses. And every course that I would go on, not every, most courses, I’d come away going, “Oh my God, the body is so amazing.” It’s amazing we all survive. It’s so intricate, how it all works. It’s just this such amazing thing on so many levels. And that’s the physical body, and then we’ve got the emotional body as well. And when we talk about the face and the head, I mean, how heavy is the head? And we’ve got this little neck that’s holding that up. Surely that’s something to go, “Hold on a minute. Surely if we were designing a human we’d give a thicker neck here.” Yeah?
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yes, please.
Abigail James:
We would, wouldn’t we? It would be a nice wide neck to hold up the skull and everything that’s going up. To make sure it’s safe and doesn’t have any issues. But absolutely, going back to that post that I did, I think a lot of people, whether it’s applying your skincare to your face, or if you are going to massage your face, often we literally possibly stop just below the jaw. And then it’s not until we get to a certain age, we start going, “Oh, so I forgot the neck.” When we then start seeing the aging process on our neck as well. But it’s all connected down to our décolleté, boobs, that’s kind of the area that we really need to be focusing on with skincare, rejuvenation, massage. Yeah, there’s a great book that I read years ago, I think it’s, oh my goodness, I can’t remember its name, but it’s something about the power of touch or positive touch, it’s one of those. And I was recommended this book when I trained as a baby massage instructor.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Aw.
Abigail James:
Touch can be negative as well as positive. So it’s interesting, just the whole dynamics of touch, physically, emotionally. And it’s fascinating. So yeah, we’ve got that power of touch to ourselves. There’s that immediate benefit emotionally. This is an interesting thing because how can a massage make you feel good, feel emotion? There’s that I’m physically touching you, but it’s making you emotionally feel good. That’s quite a complex thing, that there’s these nerves and neurons and everything going on in the skin and the tissue that is having an emotional benefit on you or impact.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Mm, yeah.
Abigail James:
And then you’ve got the opposite way round of actually I get asked this a lot, so, say, someone’s breaking out with acne and you go, “Oh, let’s talk about stress,” and they go, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, don’t be silly, that was not affecting my skin.” But if I was to say to you, “Oh my goodness, I can see your boobs.” If you’d embarrass, you’d flush. That it’s a microsecond, you haven’t thought, “Right, I’m now going to flush.” That’s a brain response to the surface of the skin without you even thinking about it. That blows my mind.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Abigail James:
And if it can do that in such a millisecond, what other intricacies are going on when we are constantly stressed or anxious? And what impact is that, not just on the muscles and the tissue tension, but physically what’s going on in the skin?
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. I was reflecting on that as I was reading these articles on you as well because the skin is our largest organ. And I have a sense that most of us human beings don’t think about it very much up until that point that we don’t want to look older.
Abigail James:
Yeah, I think we obviously do take it for granted. And I think whether you take it for granted and don’t do anything to it, or you take it for granted and you do too much and throw loads of awful things on it, that’s kind of the same thing in my eyes. It does need showing a bit more respect. So no, it’s the most fascinating organ, as they all are. And I suppose it’s like with anything, and it’s not until we have a problem with something that we go, “Oh, now I’ll start looking after it.” And it’s the same with the skin. I find those that have had acne as teenagers.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Like I did.
Abigail James:
Okay. They generally then look after their skin sooner throughout adult life than those that kind of winged it and got away without any skin issues.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Mm-hmm, yeah. That makes sense.
Abigail James:
Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, though I have to say that at some point I had a little bit of acne as an adult and if I’d known that as a teenager, it would’ve made me suicidal. It’s gone now, but honestly, it was a shocker. I was like, “No, no, no, no. No, never again.” I’d like to ask you, what would you like your clients to know about aging well?
Abigail James:
So interesting. It’s so multifaceted because aging well is very individual. And for me, it’s about getting the best skin and complexion for you. And with my clients, I know we’ve talked a lot about the holistic and the massage, I’ve got tech, I love a bit of tech, and some of the tech can make such a vast difference. And it’s not one piece of tech does everything, it’s quite complex as to the bank of tech that you might use for certain skins and conditions and everything else. So there’s that you can dip into, if you really want to be upping your results, but still look like you. I think aging well also comes into how we feed and nourish ourselves internally. And that’s physically with food, we are what we eat. It’s an old cliche, but it is so true. And modern-day Western diet is pretty horrific, with ingredients that are going to mess with our hormones, which are too laden with sugars, which are going to cause inflammation. There’s a lot of that in even foods that we would possibly consider to be healthy.
Abigail James:
So even though I think a lot of us know the basics when it comes to eating healthy for our health and wellbeing, I actually think sometimes it’s becoming more difficult to make those choices consistently, but that is a huge part of aging well. I think supplementation is really important. We don’t get everything that we need from our diets. And if we have got, whether it’s hormone imbalances or there’s pollution, or there’s things causing inflammation in our body, it can be even on such a subtle basis that we don’t realize that we’ve got this going on in our bodies. Our bodies are then not necessarily absorbing all the nutrients that it needs to be at its optimum. And then I think most importantly is that inner voice, that inner critic, that inner comparison, that when we look in the mirror, instead of going, “Oh my goodness, look at the jowls, look at the lines, look at this,” because we are our worst critic.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Abigail James:
We speak to ourselves more horrifically than anybody else. If we were saying those things to our friends, they’d be like, “Whoa, mate, you need to calm down a bit.”
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I don’t think we’ll have any friends.
Abigail James:
Exactly. So it’s easier said than done. And with all of these things, it’s consistency. So it’s not as if you’re going to wake up one morning, go, “Right. I’m now going to be kind to myself every day. And that’s the only words I’m ever going to say to myself.” You have to remind yourself. You can’t just put your skincare on for a month and think, “Right. That’s me for life, I’m done.” You can’t just have one facial and think, “Brilliant, that’s going to make me look like Elle Macpherson until I’m like 70 and I’ll be good.” All of these things, it is consistency. And I don’t think there’s one magic thing, and it might be that for aging well, you’ve got one of those aspects nailed. Brilliant, do it, focus on it. And maybe some of the others, you feel a bit clunky about it. “Oh, I eat good 70% of the time.” That’s cool, I’m all about that, that’s great. “Oh, I take supplements when I remember them.” Okay, well, maybe a little bit more consistency.
Abigail James:
So it’s being kind to yourself with all of these things, but it’s that reminder of, “Oh, right. Okay. I need to get back on track with that,” whatever that might be for you. And then that, I suppose, is I know it’s not a simple, I’m sorry, I’ve not just got one little magic pill or product that’s going to make you age well. But the key is not seeing any of that as a chore. All of that just part of your life, that actually it’s an enjoyment to put your skincare on. Actually, it’s an enjoyment. Let’s say, you’ve booked in for a laser treatment to treat your pigmentation. Okay, so the process, you might not actually like the treatment. It’s not going to hurt, but it’s not relaxing. However, if the pigment was bugging you so much every time you looked in the mirror, then from the having had it treated that you look in the mirror and go, “I’m liking what I’m looking at,” that’s a benefit. So it’s just seeing it all with rose-tinted glasses. I think that’s what we need to do. Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
For a second there you made me laugh because so it’s not about the rose cream, but it’s about the rose-tinted glasses.
Abigail James:
There we go.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. Although I am quite a bit of fan of an organic rose cream, but that’s just me.
Abigail James:
It’s just not going to be doing anything, I’m sorry.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I know, it just smells so nice. That’s okay.
Abigail James:
Well, it’s good for your mental health then, there we go.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Exactly. Now, we’re going to talk about tech in a minute because I’m very interested in that. But there’s one thing that I love that you said, you said that using these things, you’re still going to look like you, which I feel is an essential part of the way that you’ve blended tech and massage for that holistic, taking it all into consideration, right?
Abigail James:
Yeah. I think nowadays, and I am on TikTok as well as Instagram and YouTube and everywhere else, there’s a lot of, let’s say, procedures, injectables, this, that, and the other. The face doesn’t actually look like their own anymore. It actually might look, I don’t know, what we perceive as being beautiful, cliche beautiful. But then all the faces start looking the same and I don’t get that. It’s kind of you lose your identity and your individuality, and just, yeah, your person. I know we’re not defined by our faces, we’re not defined by what we look like. However, I think when someone has chosen to make certain changes to their faces, they are defined by that because they’ve made that choice to look that certain way. I mean, it’s an absolute minefield, and it’s such an individual choice as well. I also feel that there’s a fashion element, that this certain aesthetic is fashionable now.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Abigail James:
We were kids of where it was the eighties and the nineties. And it was the waif. I mean, if there was a waif now, we’d say: ‘dang girl, where’s your ass?’
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Abigail James:
And if we knock it back to the fifties, it was the hourglass, or even back in the twenties, it was the flat chest. So throughout life, there’s always been certain fashions with how we physically look. And that obviously we’re in a point where previously with face, we’d replicate the makeup of our idol or whoever it was. Whereas now, because those famous faces are having so much work done, people are now, and it is now accessible, it’s accessible for them to alter their faces to look more like the famous face that they want through injectables and procedures and things. But it’s a fashion thing that, at this point, I don’t know, I struggle with that. And I just feel that maybe if someone’s choosing, they need a bit of a hug, you know?
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah. I mean, so there’s a couple of things that come to mind as you talk about these trends. But I understand where it stems from because you look in the mirror and you already feel like you’re losing yourself, so you start doing something just to find a sense of comfort in not seeing wrinkles. I mean, I don’t know, this, it baffles me a little bit too, but that’s because I’m scared of not looking like myself.
Abigail James:
I was also finding, because I do do these videos and put them up online. I was [inaudible 01:00:48], and this is me feeling that pressure. I’d get comments of hashtag this is how not to pluck your eyebrows or lots of negativity. I was then looking at my brows in a different way. And it’s amazing how those little things, these are people that I don’t know, those comments stuck with me. I have had them microbladed and I love it. But I feel it’s framed my face. So there that is a little tweak that I’ve had done. And I do occasionally have Botox, I do. I wish it had never been invented, yeah?
Anne V Muhlethaler:
All right.
Abigail James:
Because if it hadn’t have been no one would’ve questioned the fact that, “Oh my goodness, you’ve got lines on your forehead.”
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Mm-hmm.
Abigail James:
We’d all have lines on our forehead.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Abigail James:
And we would all be totally fine with it.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Mm-hmm.
Abigail James:
But now, because it is so widely used, it’s picked up on.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Mm-hmm.
Abigail James:
It’s one of those things, that, oh my goodness, I feel the pressure myself.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I’m sure you do.
Abigail James:
But I also have clients who come in, who often, if it’s a new client and I always ask the wish list, what do we want to achieve? And 8 out of 10 times, “I’m seeing all my friends do Botox and fillers, and I’m feeling the pressure.”
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Mm-hmm.
Abigail James:
But then they’ll say, “Well, I haven’t had a facial in three years.” So okay, there’s a little gap in between.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Uh-huh, yeah.
Abigail James:
That we can be working on. So yeah, it’s the whole beauty, aesthetics, all of that. It’s such a complex thing. I suppose a lot of it, I find people are doing it too young. And I often wonder how they’re going to age. My daughter’s 23 and some of her friends have had lip fillers. That’s fashion, that’s not that they needed it, that’s not that they were worried about wrinkles or the aging process. But again, I suppose, I mean, maybe we come around full circle if it’s making them feel good, I don’t know.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That’s a very good point. And I’m going to leave it at that. At which point did you go down the tech rabbit hole because how did you get into that area specifically? Not everybody does.
Abigail James:
No, they don’t. And I sometimes find people either do tech or holistic. As I was treating people’s skin, I was feeling, “Ah, I just need something extra,” or, “I just want to deal with that on their skin or face as well.” And now, I mean, the amount of tech that you can get is insane, and not all of it’s good. A lot of it is very, very expensive. The platforms, some of them can be anything from 30 to £80,000 plus VAT, and some, to be honest. So it’s also finding the tech that suits my clientele, okay. Because there’s so much tech out there and I would love one of everything. But because as a clinician, it’s an investment, I need to know that it’s a going to target common concerns of my clients. And for example, I brought in, this is a good few years ago, what’s called an ablative laser. It was too feisty for my clients. My clients, they want the results, but they don’t want pain and downtime. So even though the results would be amazing, just not right for my clientele. So I switched it out for something else.
Abigail James:
So it’s an intricate thing of putting your tech deck together, from the financial investment and also from the benefits. And a lot of the tech, for example, I have a machine now, which is called HIFU, which is high-intensity focused ultrasound. It’s a safe way of stimulating collagen below the surface of the skin. It doesn’t heat the surface, so there’s no damage to the surface, it’s dropping the heat below, where the collagen stimulation is going to give you more of a lift and a tighten, okay. So quite specific tech. And then there’s also other settings on it that I can work even deeper that if someone has a double chin, is a heavy-set jaw/neck, we can actually do fat reduction to refine and contour, but for one face, for the customer, it’s £700, okay. So whereas this other tech I’ve got, if I was just using that tech on its own, the cost might be kind of more a £200. So it really varies. And then I’ve learned throughout my career, the tech that I can layer within one treatment.
Abigail James:
Some of them, I have to daisy chain, as in you come in today and we do this tech.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Sure.
Abigail James:
You come back in two weeks and we do a different tech.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Sure.
Abigail James:
But a lot of the way I like working is how can I layer this? You’ve come to me for an hour, two hours, however long it is. How can I layer this to get the best result out of the tech and for you? And that’s something that I was probably one of the early pioneers of doing that. Because I remember learning from some of these brands and they go, “No, no, no, no. It’s got to be on its own. And you have to stick to the protocol.” There was a handful of us in the industry years ago who were playing around more with that way of doing things. And now it’s come a little bit more commonplace. You need to know skin, you need to know how it’s going to respond. And that only comes from practice, years of practice.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, sounds fascinating.
Abigail James:
It’s fascinating. It is, it absolutely is, I love it.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, and I really want a facial now. So let’s touch very quickly on your videos.
Abigail James:
Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
When did you break YouTube?
Abigail James:
So interestingly, I did a video, it’s still my biggest hitting video, and it’s my first ever YouTube video. I know, there was no structure, there was no plan, there was no nothing. It was I wanted to be able to do a face massage that people could do at home. And I got a friend to actually record it for me, video it, because I wanted it to look quite polished. And then I just put it on YouTube, and I didn’t think any more about any SEO or anything. And over the years, it’s become, bizarrely, quite an iconic face massage video.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Amazing.
Abigail James:
That people refer back to. Or during the pandemic, there was quite a famous TikToker, who she’d realized I was on TikTok and she was like, “Oh my life, I’ve been doing your face massage for years.” And she shared it on her channel. So it’s had over 6 million views. And I know a lot of that is going to be replays. As you said, people want to follow the massage through.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Abigail James:
There’s also now a lot of people that copy it and they have got their own channels and they’re doing amazing, which is brilliant. That kind of message gets out, it’s great. So that was YouTube. And now, I have got other videos on there as well. And YouTube, I’ve actually got my biggest following, I’ve got over 200,000 followers. But it’s the platform that I wish I had more energy to nurture. But Instagram is one that you have to show up on daily. You just do, as a brand or a person, it’s kind of expected of you. And that in itself is almost like a full-time job. Your Instagrams and your TikToks, you don’t have to edit quite as much. You’ll appreciate this from podcasting. A YouTube, I have to get my big camera out, and I have to edit it, and I have to put sound over it and make it look nice and swanky. And to date, I’ve done all of my social myself, but I’m still a therapist in clinic, and do ambassadorial roles and things. So I’m kind of doing about three full-time jobs.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I was about to ask, how much sleep do you get?
Abigail James:
Not much to be honest.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Aw.
Abigail James:
Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Sleep is still good for you.
Abigail James:
It is, right? It absolutely is. So I go through phases with each of these things that my head’s in it and I’m on it, and then actually, I just need to slightly step back from it. Especially with social media, because it is all-consuming.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
But I guess what’s wonderful about the YouTube channel and seeing how far the reach has been is also how much people love it. It doesn’t get that kind of support, unless you’re actually doing something that people want.
Abigail James:
Yeah, and who would’ve thought that as niche as face massage is, because it is very niche, when I was trying to get a book deal for my second book, face massage is really niche, there aren’t many books out there on face massage, but there is a demand for it. My face massage videos within the niche had gained quite a bit of a following anyway, but then COVID happened, and all of that self-care face massage went to a different level, and suddenly people that it wasn’t their thing, it was. So there has probably elevated that sector even more. Which is, again, it’s a good thing.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, absolutely. And so tell me about the first and the second book.
Abigail James:
So the first one was called Love Your Skin. The Glow Plan is the new one. Love Your Skin, the concept, it took me five years to get anybody to listen to me, and even then I was told it’s not big enough, it’s just not, as in there’s not the demand for skin care knowledge. Whereas now, I think the biggest selling book ever on Amazon is Caroline Hirons’ Skincare book, and knock it on a few years, I was ahead of the game. I was ahead of the game. So, Love Your Skin, you can download it, but it’s now not in print, but it’s skin through the ages, skin care ingredients, it’s all of that kind of core knowledge to help someone. And there is lifestyle and it just lots of that kind of tips in it as well. Whereas, The Glow Plan, which is already an Amazon best-seller, thank you very much.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I was clapping, but with the mic muted. So there you go.
Abigail James:
Yep. That is a four-week plan to aging well. So, to be honest, all of the things that we’ve been talking about, lifestyle, nutrition, mental health, stress, skin care, bit of tech, and face massage. I’ve formulated it into this four-week plan. The first half of the book, there’s a lot of knowledge, because knowledge is power, as we’ve said, so, okay, why are we doing these? How’s the skin aging? What’s physically happening? What is stress doing to us? What does it do to collagen fibers? What do it does it do to our hormone production? So in the first half, it’s identifying these things, but then it’s going, “Okay, now we know all that. What can we practically do about it?”
Abigail James:
So then, then there’s a four-week plan that you can follow. If you follow it to the T, amazing. If you follow it loosely, brilliant. If you just take some gems from it, that’s great. Yes, if you were to follow it, you’re going to get a more profound response, but even if you just pick up a few things and they become part of your regular routine, tick, my job’s done. To be honest, a big chunk of it is also teaching people face massage and how to look after their skin and their wellbeing, but if by the end of reading the book, if I can encourage someone to feel more confident in themselves, that’s great. I’m happy with that.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, that’s lovely. Thanks so much for sharing that. Now, I’m curious, because you’ve been named the Queen of Skin, or another word I really liked, The High Priestess of Facial Massage, I read you were.
Abigail James:
Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
So, two books out, your own clinic in South London, or no, excuse me, in Surrey. So, what’s next for Abigail James?
Abigail James:
Well, I’m actually launching a podcast.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
You could have said a holiday, by the way.
Abigail James:
No, sorry.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
At which point, I feel like with everything you said, you’re like, “A holiday.” A podcast? Amazing.
Abigail James:
Yeah, I’m launching a podcast. I’m just refining the name of it at the moment, which bizarrely, that’s the tricky bit. Everything else, I know where I’m going with it. So, there will be a podcast before the end of the year.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Wonderful.
Abigail James:
Thank you, and I’m also, and I’ve definitely opened Pandora’s box with this, The Glow Plan book, I’m trying to turn into an online course.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That’s wonderful too.
Abigail James:
But I know what I do, and suddenly I need to know tech platforms and how to structure an online course, and email funnels. I rub faces for a living.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Right.
Abigail James:
I’m learning new skillsets here of how to do this, and as if I haven’t got enough to do, I will be setting up a training course to train therapists in my massage methods. So that’s called, on my website, there’s two holding pages. One is for The Glow Plan Online, and the other is for the Face Trainer Academy. Yeah, but I get a lot of young therapists message me going, “I love what you do. Do you train?” And I kind of, years ago I probably had a bit too much of an ego to go, “No, this is my method. I can’t share that with the world.” It’s like, no, actually I’d love to do that now. So yeah, but other than that, it’s all a bit boring. Nothing on, really.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, right, like you have five minutes in between meetings.
Abigail James:
Exactly.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
So as you know, the podcast is, well, like me, standing or working at the crossroads between business and mindfulness. And of course, we’ve talked about some of your tools with yoga in particular, but I would love for you to talk us through anything that has helped you either recently or throughout the years to make you feel more balanced or more grounded. Anything that you can share?
Abigail James:
Breathwork, and this is before I’d even done any yoga. My father taught me breathwork, and I didn’t realize at all what he was actually teaching me, but he’d suffered, I think he was 21 when he had a nervous breakdown. He’s a businessman, he’s a go-getter, he doesn’t sleep, blah, blah, blah, blah. Don’t know where I get this from.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Abigail James:
And he’s obviously experienced lots of highs and lows and things in his life, and as a teenager, I started suffering from, whether it was panic attacks or anxiety or just that type of stuff, and my father taught me a few things. For example, if you’re having a panic attack, to breathe into either, back then, a crisp packet, that was something that you could grab hold of, or even cup the palms of your hands, or a brown paper bag, and breathe in and out of that. So that was very early breathing techniques that I was being taught from my father. And another one that, I don’t know whether it was from him or one that I’ve just learnt over the years, is if it’s all getting a bit crazy, to actually take a deep breath in and hold it for 10 seconds. Then, you’re not hyperventilating. It immediately forces you to then take a deeper breath out, and then kind of return to your normal breathing pattern. And if you’re still feeling panicky or stressed, go back to that pattern.
Abigail James:
That’s something I’ve taught all three of my children, because all three of them at certain points have had panic attacks. So breathwork, in its rawest form, I have found immensely helpful throughout my life. And even if I’m lying awake in bed at night, I’m going to breathwork. Yeah, and actually, there was something else that my father taught me. I suppose it’s a part of a meditation, where you lie on your back and you’re in Savasana. He never called it savasana, it was just, “Lie on your back in the lounge floor,” and I vividly remember this, he took me round, “Now, focus on your toes, breathe in, relax. Now, take that and focus on your calves.” And he did that with me, and that’s a meditation technique. “All the way up your body, and now breathe into your shoulders, and relax.” That was something he taught me as a teen even before I’d heard the word yoga.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Wow.
Abigail James:
And he’s no yogi, he’s a religious type, so the spiritual yoga thing is not his thang. So yeah, those are-
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And somehow, he is practicing mindfulness of the body. So there you go.
Abigail James:
There you go.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
We’ve covered a lot. Is there anything that you’d like to add, share with our listeners before we move on to my closing questions?
Abigail James:
I suppose there’s so many life lessons that I think we’re constantly learning throughout our life journey, and the life I’ve had is definitely not what I planned at all, or ever dreamt of or ever intended to have. And I think the biggest thing I’ve learnt as life, as it does, throw curve balls or situations or whatever you find yourself in, if you can gain an ability to learn it’s okay to fall apart. Allow yourself to fall apart, do your crying, but then you pick yourself up, and you brush yourself off and you go again.
Abigail James:
That’s the biggest thing. You are allowed to fall apart, but you’ve got to pick yourself up, brush yourself off and go again, because you’re going to be stronger. And whatever life throws at you, whether it’s a relationship breakup or whatever it might be, that is your mantra; fall apart, do it, pick yourself up, brush yourself off, off you go again.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I’m really glad you added that. So, I have a few closing questions.
Abigail James:
Sure.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And the first one is what is a favorite word of yours that you could tattoo on yourself? And I’m not saying you have to tattoo, but a word you could live with.
Abigail James:
Okay, so this is something I’ve learned from my mother. She had this love affair with Spain. She moved out there, she learnt to flamenco dance, the full shebang. I don’t know whether I’m saying it right, poco a poco, which means little by little. Slowly, you will get there. Slowly by slowly, you’ll get there. And she would say that to me, as if to probably say, “Just slow down.” Her other response to me was, “So, darling, when are you going to stop all this working stuff?” She never had to work. So that was her, “When are you going to pack all this stuff in?”
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh my God, that’s crazy.
Abigail James:
Yeah, welcome to the real world.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
What song best represents you?
Abigail James:
Okay, so I preempted this question, and there was one, I had to have a quick Google and it’s a bit of a cliche, but I think it’s by, is it Andra Day? It’s called Rise Up.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh, yeah, it is Andra Day. Oh, that’s a beautiful song.
Abigail James:
Yeah. That’s the story, brush yourself off, you’ve got to rise up, keep going when you’re down and out.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Amazing.
Abigail James:
Yeah, but you keep going. So I love that.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Beautiful. What is the sweetest thing that’s ever happened to you?
Abigail James:
I thought about this question as well. I’ve got to say, having my three children, they have given me moments, each of them individually, of whether I’ve been burnt out and in bed because I’m exhausted, or I’ve had a health flare up or whatever, they’ve always just dropped some sweet little, whether it’s Ruben bringing me a cup of tea in the morning, or Georgia would write me notes. I’ve still got her notes from when she was young. “Oh, mommy, you’re the best thing in the world. I love you. You’re amazing. You’re this, you’re that,” you know, the gushing. And then my middle one, James, I remember him holding my face dearly, looking me in the eyes and then saying, “What are those lines on your face, mommy?” “That’s you, darling. That’s you.” They’ve all given me really sweet, nurturing moments that you have to stop and acknowledge. Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That last one is so precious. What is a secret superpower that you have?
Abigail James:
Okay, so one of my superpowers is I’m hypermobile. I can’t do it now, but my party trick used to be I would hold my hands behind my back, so hold them together, and then I will bring them over my head. Yeah, so basically, I suppose I was dislocating my shoulders.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah.
Abigail James:
And then I could bring them back round the front, and that was my party trick for years. I’m sorry, I definitely can’t do that now.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
That’s amazing.
Abigail James:
Yeah, yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Where is somewhere that you’ve visited that you felt really had an impact on who you are today?
Abigail James:
My father took us to Marrakesh when we were teens. Him and my mother had recently split up and he took myself and my younger sister, and we went to Marrakesh with my dad, and it was just the most exotic, creative, smelly, beautiful, vibrant place that I’d ever seen. I’ve since been back I think about five times, and I love it, and that definitely, it’s just a place, it definitely had a profound impact on me, especially being that kind of age. Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Gorgeous. I love Marrakesh.
Abigail James:
Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Now, imagining that you can step into a future version of yourself, what piece of advice would you think that future you would need to give to current, present state you?
Abigail James:
Yeah, that’s a really tough one, because I can obviously talk about business success and the yoga journey, and yes, I’ve learnt all this great stuff. I still need, I’m still a work in progress, I still need some edges knocking off. No, it’s like, no, I don’t need so many edges knocking off now, but I still need some nurturing and some love and support. So I feel I’m still definitely on my journey, and maybe it would be, “Damn, girl, book that holiday.”
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Interesting. Add that to the to-do list.
Abigail James:
Yes.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And so my last question, which is my favorite, is what brings you happiness?
Abigail James:
That’s a really tough question, because happiness is like this thing that we’re all striving for, to be happy, and I think there’s so many things that can bring us happiness. Obviously, my children bring me happiness, but also fucking frustration as well.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Fair enough.
Abigail James:
My work brings me happiness. Being by the sea brings me happiness. My dog brings me happiness. I think it’s interesting that it can actually be the simple things that bring you happiness. So it’s difficult to say one particular thing, but it’s definitely different now to if you’d have asked me 10 years ago. It’s the things in simplicity. It’s a Sunday roast round the kitchen table with the family. That’s happiness.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Thank you so much for sharing that. What is one of the more embarrassing moments of your life that you can share with me?
Abigail James:
Okay, so this is one that my children will also laugh at and bring up. I was heavily pregnant with my youngest. Ruben is now 16. So I had got Georgia and James, we were in a big supermarket and it was a really hot sunny day and I was in a rush. I think Georgia must have been I’m guessing about five, James was probably, I don’t know, 18 months or two, and we were in a rush and I’d got this huge pregnant belly. I was about eight months pregnant, and it was like, “Right, come on, kids. Let’s do, let’s go. We’re in a rush, do, do.” And in this rush, I’d got James skipping along behind me and I was hurrying him along, and I’d got Georgia in front of me, and James behind me tripped and grabbed my skirt to stop himself from falling.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
No.
Abigail James:
Now, being a pregnant lady, my skirt was underneath my bump. So it came down really easily, but because it was a hot day, I wasn’t wearing underwear.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
No.
Abigail James:
So I’m in the middle of a busy, big supermarket with my bum out, and the biggest pregnancy bump. You can’t bend over delicately to pick your skirt back up in that situation.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Stop it. Oh my God.
Abigail James:
And you then kind of, you look around as you’ve then kind of pulled yourself back into… And there’s people blatantly looking in the other direction, because they were obviously looking, but no one now wants to make eye contact with you. It was horrific.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh my God.
Abigail James:
Yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
How did you get the skirt back up?
Abigail James:
Well, you have to then.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh, you just had to bend over?
Abigail James:
Yeah, bend over without your knickers, a big fat pregnancy ass bent over, hoicking the skirt back up. Yeah, that is definitely my most embarrassing moment to date. I mean, hey, there’s still time yet for another more embarrassing moment in my life, but that’s it for now.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Oh, this is one for the books. Yeah, that’s amazing. Thank you so for sharing that you. Thank you, again, Abigail. Such a beautiful bright conversation, and I’m sure that many people are going to be super inspired by everything that you shared, and from your story to the skin care and the [inaudible 01:29:01], it’s really exciting to see your journey and to get to know you as well.
Abigail James:
Thank you. I often feel, because life does throw curve balls, it’s allowed me to then, when someone comes through my treatment room door or I do a consultation, or someone connects with me on social media, I figure I’ve been through some of that stuff so that maybe I can connect with a certain person in a different way. So that’s kind of how I look at the journey, that maybe, I don’t know, my mishaps and things might kind of be able to help someone else. So bring on the mishaps, that’s what I say.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Well, that and a holiday.
Abigail James:
And a holiday. I do occasionally find myself saying, “I just feel like I need a year off.” That would be nice.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Maybe one day. That would be exciting.
Abigail James:
Oh, gee, I’d literally be laying on the beach and I’d be going, “Right, what’s next then?” The gray matter is constantly…
Anne V Muhlethaler:
I know.
Abigail James:
Constantly, yeah.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Yeah, it’s the same with me, but thanks so much. Have a wonderful rest of the day.
Abigail James:
Thank you.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
And let’s connect again really soon.
Abigail James:
Yeah, that sounds great.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Hopefully in person.
Abigail James:
Yes. Take care.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
Thanks again to Abigail for being my guest on the show today. As always, you can find all the relevant links of what we talked about in the show notes. So, friends and listeners, thank you so much for joining me again today. If you’d like to hear more, you can subscribe to the show on the platform of your choice. And if you want to connect, you can get in touch with me, @annvi on Twitter or Anne Muhlethaler on LinkedIn, or on Instagram, @_outoftheclouds, where I also share daily musings about mindfulness.
Anne V Muhlethaler:
You will find all of the episodes of the podcast and more on annevmuhlethaler.com. If you don’t know how to spell it, that’s okay, that link is also in the show notes. And I invite you to subscribe to my monthly newsletter to get regular news in your inbox. So that’s it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening to Out of the Clouds. I hope you will join us again next time. Until then, be well, be safe, and take care.