This week, host of Out of the Clouds Anne Muhlethaler is joined by journalist, media trainer and ex-broadcaster Martin Popplewell (@Martinpops).
Anne had the occasion to work with Martin on a couple of projects, which landed her in the green room of the BBC Morning News a few years ago. However little did she know of his (very) early career in TV which landed him on a deserted island, on purpose it should be noted, and not on any show you may have heard of.
They talk about his passion for journalism and politics, his experience of grilling PM David Cameron on gay rights and the state of the (mainstream) media today. Martin also is an experienced and savvy media trainer, he talks about why it’s completely normal to have nerves before going live on TV and yes, we (civilians) should all get media trained if we are to engage with the mainstream media as it’s often referred to today.
A wide ranging, profound and fun conversation. Enjoy!
Selected Links from the Episode
You can find Martin on Twitter and on LinkedIn
His consultancy website is CoconutCommunications.tv
The Kingdom of Tonga
Martin’s documentary ‘The Real Castaway’
The mainstream tv show Castaway
TV series Shipwrecked
The 1992 Clinton Presidential Campaign
Martin’s interview with David Cameron interview and its coverage
Gloria Steinhem at TedWomen2020
Todd Terry and the song ‘Something going on in my soul’
Writer Matthew Parris
The book ‘Tricks Journalists Play’
Episode Transcript
Anne:
Hi. Hello. Bonjour. Namaste. This is Out of the clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness, and I’m your host, Anne Muhlethaler. My guest in today’s episode is a British journalist, an ex-broadcaster, and currently a very highly specialized consultant and media trainer by the name of Martin Popplewell. Martin and I met a few years ago when I reached out to him to lean on his professional services, for work purposes, of course. As it turns out, Martin’s early start in front of the camera is mesmerizing and a very unique story, one that I didn’t discover before starting to prepare for this interview. So today, Martin shares about this extraordinary life experience, and he also offers me his thoughts on the state of the media today, and of course, why should civilians, as he calls them, be media trained? It was a lively and very inspiring discussion, and I hope you’ll enjoy it as much as I did. So I am very happy to bring you this wonderful conversation with Martin Popplewell. enjoy.
Anne:
So Martin, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me today.
Martin:
Thank you.
Anne:
Let me just start by asking you how you are. How are things with you? Where are you in London at the moment?
Martin:
So I live in Vauxhall, which is just south of the river, around the corner from MI6, where James Bond, in theory, works from. And I’m fine. I’m aware of how many other people in the world are suffering terribly, and whenever I look at the inconveniences that COVID 19 and the current situation that the globe finds itself in, I am reminded that I have nothing really to complain about. I mean, I have a lovely home, and I’m able to communicate with all of my friends, albeit digitally, my family digitally, but it’s a small compromise compared to the challenges that lots of people around the world are facing. So I’m completely fine. How are you?
Anne:
I’m really good. And Geneva is less quiet than it was a few months ago in the pandemic. The second wave, or is it the third? I’m not sure, is definitely a very real thing here in Switzerland, but other than that, very much like you, I am incredibly privileged because I’m set up to work from home. So I’m in a good position compared to a lot of people. And in that sense, I feel very grateful, but I’m very much looking forward to that vaccine. I’m not sure I’d want to be the first person to get it-
Martin:
Oh, I would be.
Anne:
… but maybe the second.
Martin:
I would be front of the queue. In fact, there was an appeal for people to volunteer for sort of basically to be guinea pigs for various sort of tests and other COVID-related things here. And I tried to sign up, but they’ve got enough people already. So I missed out on that one, but yeah, I’m a great optimist, and have been for quite some time about the vaccine. And I think that this time next year, we’re going to be looking at a very different situation, but we’ve got quite a few months of it still being pretty crap in between now and then. But yeah, bring on the vaccine,
Anne:
Bring on the vaccine. So I wanted to start this conversation around your start in TV, which I discovered rather recently, we’d love it for you to tell us about your adventures on a deserted island.
Martin:
It’s an unusual beginning of a career, but it was not just the beginning of my career in television and the media, but it was just the beginning of my career in so many ways. It was the most formative of experiences. I’m going to give you the espresso version, because if we go into the long version, we could be here for a couple of hours.
Anne:
Sure.
Martin:
The short version of this is that when I was 15 years old, I saw the film The Blue Lagoon. And for those that don’t know, it tells a story of a boy and a girl stranded on an uninhabited Pacific desert island. It’s kind of a re-interpretation of that very old story, in fact, 300 years old story, Robinson Crusoe, but with a romantic twist. And you have to view all of this story through the prism of a 15 year old’s mind, because otherwise I know that any listener to your podcast and listening to me speak will be shaking their heads and thinking, “Who the hell is this guy?”
Martin:
So suspend belief for a moment. Imagine a 15 year old. He’s not that happy at school, wanting an escape. And he sees this beautiful vision of a boy and a girl stranded on a desert island, growing up, falling in love. And that essentially is the story of The Blue Lagoon. So I saw that and was just absolutely captivated by it. I could think of nothing for days, weeks, months afterwards, other than how I was going to go off and do this. And so it sort of started that way. I then started writing to government officials around the world, not telling them how old I was, not lying, but just missing out certain elements of the story and saying that I wanted to go live on one of their islands. And I kind of dressed it up in a slightly more scientific guise to make it … I didn’t mention The Blue Lagoon.
Anne:
Right.
Martin:
These government officials were getting these letters from me in England. Most of them went completely unanswered. It’s like anything in life. Fire off enough letters, ask enough people, and eventually you might get lucky. And I did. One of my lessons fell on the desk of this wonderful guy out in the Pacific. He was the son of a chief, and he saw this and he thought, “This mad, eccentric Englishman.” He sort of put me in my fifties or sixties, and he thought that this would be quite fun, having this mad, eccentric Englishman come and live on one of their islands.
Martin:
And that was the sort of the beginning of the story. Along the way, I started scratching my head and started thinking, “How the hell am I going to pay for all of this?” And I came up with the idea of approaching the BBC, and the idea was they would give me a camera, a solar charger to charge up the camera, and they would train me in terms of how to make film. And they fell for my plan, unbelievably. But again, the naivety and the optimism of a teenager means that you can go out and do things that as you get older, you kind of talk yourself out of doing.
Martin:
And off I went. The dream turned out a bit different in reality. That’s where we can get bogged down for hours, explaining the ins and outs, but that’s essentially my sort of break into television. And it wasn’t just my break in TV, as I say, it just opened up so many doors and so many experiences, and everything else has really come from that.
Anne:
That’s absolutely incredible. It’s a special story. And what’s sticking with me right now is just how incredible things happen when you put stuff out in the world, right? Who were the governments officials that you emailed? I mean, I was just wondering, what was the country that you landed in?
Martin:
Well, the country that I eventually landed in was Micronesia, but this was at a time, of course, when email didn’t exist.
Anne:
Right. Oh yeah. Of course. Sorry.
Martin:
This was 31 years ago. Well, no need to apologize. But this was at a time when you sent letters, they took two weeks to get there, then they’d fall onto a desk with a whole load of other letters. And then two months later you would get the reply back. And I remember my mum and dad, who I didn’t tell what I was up to, because you kept things like that secret as a child, you keep lots of things secret from the rest, and I used to get these letters back from sort of various countries which they’d never heard of, and I’d never heard of until I started writing to them. Best that they knew not to ask, because then I would have to lie or say, “I’m telling you.” But I remember the expression on their faces when they would hand over these letters from His Majesty, the King of Tonga, or the Fijian government, or I was bombarding literally every government that had islands under their administration.
Martin:
I was talking a moment ago about the whole learning process, but I was also learning about the way that you approach government officials, the way that you approach complicated things like that. And it was just one of the many lessons which I learned, but yeah. I shall never forget the expression on my mother’s face when she used to hand over these letters. Some of the letters used to have really intriguing stamps, and the government in Tonga used to have bananas as little stickers, like with banana emblems. And if you’re going for a sort of 50 cent banana stamp, it had five bananas on it. If you were going for a sort of $1, it had 10 bananas. I just kind of loved that little [inaudible 00:09:23].
Anne:
Oh, that’s fantastic. I’m going to have to go on a map and just double check what that is again. I was actually planning to ask you, what was the lesson, if you had to choose one, or if you could pick one thing that you feel really emerged for you out of this experience, or even if you could do it again, what would you do differently?
Martin:
Well, the first question is I think the one that I’d like to answer first.
Anne:
Sure.
Martin:
Never give up. I just think that even if you don’t eventually achieve what you would like to achieve, you’ll achieve something. It’ll take you somewhere normally interesting, and it would have been so easy at so many junctures, and I won’t bore you with all of the events along the way which could have stopped me. There were so many, so many things where it would have been understandable for me to have said, “You know, this isn’t supposed to happen.” And I think partly through wanting to disprove all my school friends who used to laugh at me and say that, “This will never happen, and you’ll never achieve it,” I was hell bent on making sure that I would achieve it. And so I just kept bashing on and banging on, and when things went wrong, I just thought, “Well, what’s the way around this? What’s the alternative route to this?” And that was such an important thing to have learned.
Martin:
I sometimes worry that I’ve forgotten it now, or maybe I’m just lazier now, and sometimes it’s easier just to say, “Actually, it’s not worth persevering with something.” When sometimes maybe that’s the wisdom of getting older, is sometimes you realize that some things are just not worth continuing to pursue. But for whatever reason, I felt that this was worth continuing to pursue. And I’m so, so glad that largely, probably not through any other reason than wanting to disprove my friends at school who were laughing at me, I kept on trying to find an alternative route to the end destination. And it turned out completely differently to how I imagined it and how I thought it would work out. But as I say, an amazing experience, and such a great learning experience, and the one which has stayed with me ever since.
Martin:
I can’t remember what your second question was now.
Anne:
What would you do differently, simply, if you could go back?
Martin:
If I went back … It’s a really good question. I’m not sure I have a decent answer. In retrospect, at the time, there were all sorts of things which I thought, “I’ve made the wrong decision, and I wishing I had done that, and I wish I hadn’t done that.” But I think one of the things that you learn in life as well is that it’s by making mistakes that you learn a lot of the time. And most of the time, the mistakes you make, however terrible they seem to you at the time, and however crushed you might be by mistakes that you’ve made, I think the cliched saying is, “Unless it kills you, you’ll grow stronger from it.” So on that basis, there are loads of things which I could list which went wrong, and in retrospect, it might have been better to have not done them, but none of them evidently killed me, and they were all really important learning experiences. So I’m not sure that there is anything really I would do massively different for that reason.
Anne:
Yeah. I appreciate that. What year was it that the BBC actually invited you to go back? Because I saw the documentary that’s on your website called The Real Castaway, and I wanted to encourage everyone who’s listening to go and discover it after they listen to your interview. It was a really beautiful film. I really appreciated the way that you and them created this second narrative around it.
Martin:
Well, thank you, first of all, for the praise. It’s always appreciated, and it brings me enormous joy, and this is one of the great advantages of the digital revolution. That you can make a documentary now, and then you can put it up onto YouTube, and then it continues to be watched in a way that in the past, you’d make documentaries, they’d be aired probably once and then never seen again. A hugely complicated story, again, in terms of the making of the documentary. The initial documentary was commissioned by the BBC, but for various political reasons, the program which had commissioned it was taken off air before the documentary could be made, and then I was working at Channel Five, and it was at the time, I suspect this is not unique to the UK, but there were lots of programs which were basically looking at living on desert islands, whether they were Shipwrecked or Survivor.
Martin:
Living on desert islands, whether they were Shipwrecked or Survivor. Had a series in the UK called Castaway. And I went to my boss and I said, “Look, there’s all these programs being made, and they’re all a bit fake because there’s basically a speed boat there and a helicopter on standby, so if anybody gets really sick, they’ll zip over and they’ll be medevaced before anything gets really serious.” And I said, “Look, I did it for real. There was no helicopter. There was no one there to medevac us.” We did it for real. We were properly on our own. We went weeks in between seeing anybody else when fishermen would perhaps drop by just to check things were okay.
Martin:
And so, that’s how, again, the documentary was another tale in terms of don’t give up. There was a big gap between it being commissioned and the adventure taking place. And then me revisiting the island to actually to make the documentary. And actually, I think from my perspective as a television person and as a journalist, I think that it ended up being a much more interesting story to be told than it would have been if we’d made the documentary immediately after we came back.
Martin:
Because I think if we’d made the documentary immediately after we came back, it would have been a story about, “This is how you chop open a coconut. This is how you eat a coconut crab. This is how you weave coconut fronds together.” And there is a certain level of interest in that side of survival, but actually what the documentary ended up being was about teenage angst. It turned out about growing up. It turned out to be a whole lot more nuanced, I think, and more interesting story because of the 10 year delay, more than a 10 year delay between the time that we actually were on the island as castaways initially, and then when we went back and revisited.
Martin:
At times, it was excruciating embarrassing for me watching myself because when we made the documentary, I was, I think, 31, if I remember correctly. On the island, I’m 18/19. And not many of us go back and look at what we were like as 18 year olds.
Anne:
Yikes.
Martin:
What I would humbly suggest… Exactly. What I would humbly suggest is that if most of them looked at ourselves as 18 or 19 year olds when we’re in our thirties, we would cringe with embarrassment and just think, oh my God. Did I really say that? Did I actually do that? Did I actually behave like that? Yes, you did. And I think whilst it’s excruciating me embarrassing for me, I kind of realized, don’t worry, you were 18. That’s what you’re like. And it’s always going to be, for most of us, certainly I think for a lot of people.
Martin:
And so that’s interesting, I think, for anybody to be forced to look at themselves back is an interesting exercise. And all of that came about because of the politics of the BBC and because of the way that things worked out. And as I say, another example of actually things don’t turn out the way that you expect them to most of the time, not all of the time, but a lot of the time they can end up actually being more interesting.
Anne:
Thank you so much. That’s such a really amazing story and it’s enjoyable for me to hear what it was like for you as an experience of going back. That’s fantastic. So I was exploring your website. And did I read that right, that you studied zoology at UCL?
Martin:
Exactly.
Anne:
Go on. Is it because of the island?
Martin:
As a kid, I always loved animals. And so, the education system in the UK, I think one of its faults as it ends up trapping you going down the scientific route or the humanities route. And actually, if I was doing things again, I’m not sure I would necessarily study zoology, but it was really as a result of my childhood passion for animals and wildlife, it was because of that. And I’d already kind of gone down that route before I left for my desert island. I’d already sort of applied for university places to do zoology. It’s one of those interesting things because most people that do journalism end up being English students or history students, not zoology. But I think actually, it could be quite a good thing because it means that I have a slightly more sort of scientific approach to things that lots of journalists and people who work in the background that I do now don’t normally have. And I think having different perspectives on things is always a good thing.
Anne:
Absolutely. What were your early career ambitions, so to speak?
Martin:
By the time I was studying, I had already thought that journalism seemed like a really good idea. I can’t remember exactly when the sort of a tipping point was. I think I was already going down that route of kind of television. Certainly by the time I got the commission from the BBC to make the film, so I was already thinking along those lines. But I think it was cemented by actually when we were on our island, we had journalists coming to see us, and that wasn’t something I was particularly happy about because I wanted to be castaway and that felt like a terrible intrusion, but I’d encouraged their interest in the project. And therefore, in actually in retrospect, it would have been rather naive to have expected them not to have arrived.
Martin:
I think when I saw all these people going off on this wonderful adventures to come and visit us on our island as journalists, that cemented in my mind that this not what my father would consider a proper job, and any job which is not a proper job is kind of the job that you probably want to have. Definitely whilst I was out there, it consolidated the desire to be a journalist. And from a relatively early age, from around about sort of 14 or 15, I’d started to become really, really interested in news and current affairs and in politics. And so, politics and journalism, you either go into politics and do that, or you go into journalism and you’re part of the same ecosystem and you’re reporting on it, hopefully with some less of the downsides of actually being a politician. It started sort of in my teens, but by the time I’d gone out and lived on my desert island, it was beginning to consolidate that journalism was so obviously the best thing to be doing, and it certainly was.
Anne:
I read as well that you were a researcher for an MP, Alan Duncan, at the House of Commons, and that you also worked in the US. I’m not sure for how long. You worked for Congressman Richard Gephardt in Washington, DC. And you also volunteered for Clinton’s campaign. That’s all fascinating.
Martin:
There was a sort of a scholarship program with the US where there are students, because I did this all when I was at university in 1992, where students from the UK would go and work on Capitol Hill and students from the US would come and work in parliament. And so, I applied, got on to that scheme, unbelievably because studying zoology rather than international affairs, which I think pretty much most of the other interns on the program were studying. And a great experience. And again, just gave me that opportunity to kind of see politics upfront, to be in the States, to be working on Capitol Hill.
Martin:
I was actually working, as you said for Dick Gephardt. And it was the year of the election, the first election where Clinton was running, and a group of us all went down to New York for the convention and spent time there at the convention doing pretty pedestrian things, it has to be said. We were sort of holding up placards and following around people at the right places and engaging in that way, but a fantastic experience seeing a presidential election up close. Every four years I’m reminded by the time I spent working on Capitol Hill. It was great experience.
Anne:
Wow. I had wondered whether it was journalism or politics that had attracted you first. And I can see that one was feeding the other. And this resonates with me a lot because I grew up in a household where news and current affairs were really important. My father was an avid reader of newspapers. We had the radio and the TV on, selectively onto programs he deemed interesting, so that feels quite close to me.
Anne:
From the daily recordings that I saw in the documentary during the island adventure, it looks like you were almost made to be on camera. There was an interview at the beginning of the documentary of you at your parents’ home being questioned as to why you should be going or something along those lines. And even then, you strike me as so comfortable in front of the camera. So broadcasting was your goal. I’d love to hear about what it’s like. And what was your early career in TV?
Martin:
There is no doubt about it, television is an extraordinarily exciting environment to work in. And I can’t remember who said it, but one famous TV person once described being on television is more addictive than crack cocaine. I have to confess that I’ve never tried crack cocaine myself, but my understanding is that it’s highly addictive, And so is being on television. And when I say being on television, I’m thinking about live TV. And I’m thinking about that whole thing of being the front person for a very large operation, as TV newsrooms are, with lots and lots of people behind the scenes and lots of reporters and producers out on the road. And it all comes to sort of a pinnacle, a sort of a focus, in the person that is presenting the news.
Martin:
And so, there’s a tremendous sense of responsibility that you’re the person that’s there delivering it and introducing. Of course, you have other reporters who are there leading your way and helping with the narrative. But at the end of the day, you are front person. And it’s extraordinarily exciting. And you have that count in your rear, that, “We’re going live in five, four, three…” And your heart is, certainly at the beginning of your career, about to leave your chest by the time they get down to one, and then you are live and you’re speaking to tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, potentially millions of people, and it’s all going out at that particular time. So it was, and still remains I think, a fantastically exciting career, whether or not you’re the person that’s fronting the news or whether you’re one of the people that are making it all happen behind the scenes, because without all those people, it doesn’t happen.
Martin:
I wouldn’t want to be doing it now, but for the time that I was doing it, it was absolutely the best thing to be doing. And I had an absolute ball, whether I was reporting on really serious, hard news, which is my preferable place, but equally having some fun, doing some of the lighter, soft focus stuff, which is often actually more difficult, I think. It’s often said that journalists that write for tabloid newspapers are more skilled than those that write for the more sophisticated end of the market. And I think I probably agree with that analysis and I think I would agree with the… Well, agree because I’m suggesting it, but I think it is more difficult from a TV news perspective to be doing the lighter stories, but I enjoyed them all.
Martin:
And in a sense, one of the great things about being a general news reporter, which I was probably for most of my career, I specialized in politics at certain points, but most of the time I was a general news reporter when I was reporting, was covering the Spice Girls one day and terrorist attacks in London the next, and the wide variety of those stories was great to be doing.
Anne:
As I was reviewing your career, which is readily documented on your website, I discovered that you famously interviewed David Cameron. Yeah, I watched that interview because I’m not going to not watch it. And you really grilled him.
Martin:
It’s fascinating for me, from a professional perspective. My kind of broadcasting career had actually been parked by that point. I still do the odd bit of journalism even now, but most of the time it is running my consultancy. And so, if your listeners, I did this interview with David Cameron for Gay Times. And David Cameron had made much of the Conservative party’s attempt to rebrand itself as not anti-gay, basically, as it had been rightly, to a degree, marked out as being because of policies during the 1980s, and to a degree the 1990s. And so, it was a kind of rebranding exercise for the Conservatives.
Martin:
And so, I did this interview with him and it did not go well for him. And the reality is, is if an interview doesn’t go well for a politician, it means it’s gone very well for the journalist. And so, there’s a kind of degree of irony that the interview is the most important piece of journalism I’ve done in my career. But what I often have remarked and thought about is that in a sense, I was much more effective as a journalist and much more dangerous as a journalist because I’d spent more time thinking about actually what makes for a good interview and where are the danger areas for an interviewee because of my current job, and the job that I was essentially doing when I interviewed Cameron, which is as a consultant running my consultancy, Coconut Communications, advising people most of the time about communications, advising people most of the time about how not to mess up their interviews. So it is kind of an irony that, as I say, that interview happened when I’d stopped being effectively a journalist on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, it was an interesting one. Did you enjoy watching it?
Anne:
Oh, I loved it. And I loved watching also how it was reported on other news networks, because there’s that Channel 4 snippet of that as well.
Martin:
Without wanting to sound like I’m blowing my own trumpet, you always know when you’ve done something particularly newsworthy when other news networks pick up on it and run with it. I mean, that’s the kind of the icing on the cake for any journalist, when you’ve done a big interview and other outlets cover it, that you have done probably done something which is an interesting interview.
Martin:
The thing about that interview, I was completely shocked at how badly he did in the interview. So I would love of course from an egotistical perspective, think that it was all down to my carefully crafted questions. But it was also, I think, down to a lack of preparation on his behalf. Considering the fact that he had such an experience and his background was in PR, it shocked me how badly he performed. But then this is what I always say to anyone that I’m working with, is that complacency and thinking you’ll know how to negotiate your way through an interview is always the biggest threat to doing a successful interview, because that time when you kind of sit back and think you know what to do, you know what to say, that’s the time when you are in most danger.
Anne:
That’s what I felt when I watched it. He was absolutely unprepared to actually discuss anything that was remotely related to the topic that you were bringing up. But I love the irony given that you’re now a media trainer. I did read in your bio somewhere that you also had interviewed Tony Blair shortly after he stepped down from his role as prime minister. And it sounded like it was a really deep conversation. Would you mind telling me a little bit about it?
Martin:
Tony Blair is quite religious, and that you could say he’s very religious. And his chief comms advisor, Alastair Campbell, had told him, I think quite wisely, “Tony, we don’t do God.” And I think that that was reflective of the secular nature of the United Kingdom and the fact that we have, probably largely for historical reasons, going back to Henry VIII’s time, a general degree of skepticism. And of course we have many religious people in this country, but a good many people are not believers and don’t practice religion. And so Tony didn’t do God at the instructions of Alastair Campbell whilst he was in office. But of course, Tony Blair wanted to do God and wanted to talk about it. So when he left office, he converted to the Catholic faith and he did his first interview with a program which I was working for. And he did an interview talking about his conversion to Rome.
Martin:
And so it was an interesting interview. I think what’s interesting about Tony Blair, going back to gay rights, is that Tony Blair had an exemplary record on promoting gay equality, and yet then converted to a denomination within the Christian faith, which isn’t well known for its progressive views on homosexuality and the law. So it was interesting conversation on a number of levels. But it was an interesting interview for me though, because I felt slightly hamstrung in terms of the questions that I was able to ask because of I think the way that the interview had been set up. And I wasn’t given just free reign to ask what I wanted to in the way that I was with David Cameron. Probably Tony Blair’s very relieved that I wasn’t given the free reign to ask what I wanted to.
Anne:
So we’ve talked about the importance of journalism and the news culture as you were growing up. And I was wondering, how do you feel about the state of journalism today, obviously first and foremost in the UK, and then maybe more broadly?
Martin:
It’s a really good question. Things aren’t in a good place. And they’re not in a good place because I think lots of people distrust journalism. I understand why they distrust journalism, and in part I share that distrust. I don’t think we can separate what’s going on in journalism and the level of distrust of journalism with social media and the ability for really wild QAnon type rumors to spread unchallenged and to take on an air of authenticity and credibility in the minds of some people, that however bad journalists are … and goodness knows throughout history, journalism has been responsible for fake news, for out and out lies, for misreporting and all sorts of bad deeds … I think it was, and it still remains in terms of the mainstream media, curtailed by the fact that other journalistic platforms and outlets will challenge those that are clearly telling untruths.
Martin:
And that restricts the ability of mainstream journalists to keep going out and saying things which are clearly not true and doing bad things, where there isn’t the same break on QAnon conspiracy theories or whatever it might be spreading on the internet.
Martin:
And then we have the political figures not helping. And I won’t mention the 45th president’s name. He has played a role in that. And I think that the current UK administration is far too ready to speak untruths. And the whole atmosphere seems to have changed from where essentially politicians might have bent the truth and told things which turned out to be untrue, but their willingness and ability just to continue to spout untruth now also has kind of led to a corrosion of the whole system. I don’t think you can just look at it as just where journalism is and where the impact of social media is having an effect and the way that politicians are behaving. They are all interconnected. They’re all reacting off each other. Things are not in a good place.
Martin:
And one of the reasons why I’m quite glad I’m not in journalism anymore … because when I was doing journalism, there was no social media and the degree of bile and vitriol that journalists, good journalists, people who are doing really good, fair jobs and take their work really seriously and go out of their way to be fair, are being torn to pieces online because people perceive them to be saying … well, they’re saying things which they don’t like. And it’s that classic example of where they are trying to shoot the messenger, some of the people that stalk people on social media and pursue them on social media. I feel embarrassed about saying this now because actually I should be braver, and maybe I would be braver if I were actually doing it and have developed a thicker skin, but I’m glad I’m not there getting death threats because I have said something that one political party or representative of a political party or a follower of a political party doesn’t like. And that is the reality of journalism now.
Anne:
Yeah. I don’t really know what to say. As you very clearly expressed, it’s the whole ecosystem that needs a little bit of a cleanup, reviewing people’s values or something. But let’s move on to the good job that you do in the world today as a media trainer, because that’s how you and I met. I discovered that your company covers also presentation training, pitch training, video production, podcasting, webcasting, and select committee training. So first of all, I’ll come to you next time I want to train for a presentation. Thanks. Tell me about what those entail, and what’s important about media training.
Martin:
Media training I think is really important because it stops you … I can’t complete a hash of what could be a great opportunity if you don’t make a hash of it. And I think that …
Anne:
You’re just referring to David Cameron now.
Martin:
Well, perhaps thinking about David particularly, yeah. I mean, I think the reality is that lots of journalists are not necessarily just setting out to tell a story. Well, they’re always setting out to tell a story. But along the way, what makes for a better story for them, and is going to get more clicks on their website and more views on whichever platform they’re putting it out on, that isn’t necessarily always good for the interviewee. And civilians, as we call them, i.e. non-journalists, don’t always have a fair understanding … why should they? It’s not their job to … in terms of how to avoid some of the bear traps, the pitfalls, and how to get across what they want. And that’s where you as a media trainer and a media coach come in.
Martin:
Because there are some people that say, “Oh, we don’t need to speak to the media anymore because we can put our own stuff out on YouTube. We can put our own stuff out on Instagram, on Twitter or whatever it might be.” And what that fails to understand is that if you want to reach new people, if you want to reach new markets, if you want to get your opinions across to the people that matter, you have to go where they are. And they aren’t necessarily going to be following you on those social media platforms. So social media, of course, is a really, really, really important part of any commerce strategy. But if you want to build your number of followers, if you want to go into new markets and go into new areas where you are not known, where your view isn’t known, where your product isn’t known, your service isn’t known, you have to go where the people are. And actually the quickest and shortest way to do that is to go via mainstream media, as president Trump often refers to it.
Martin:
It’s interesting, actually, using the Trump analogy, that even he, who professes to loathe the mainstream media, he relied on them. I mean, he didn’t have 18 million followers on Twitter at the beginning of his presidential campaign. It was only when Fox News and CNN and all the others were basically kind of going live to his press conference to see what madness he was going to come out with next, that he started to build up that following of people.
Martin:
And whilst he, I suppose, has made a career out of saying outrageous things, which worked because he got elected amongst his base, most people, if there are saying outrageous things, either intentionally or inadvertently, are going to come unstuck with the things that they say. And they may not even realize what they’re saying is particularly difficult or problematic. And that’s, again, the part of the role of the media coach, is to run through the difficult questions, listen to what they’re planning to say as their messages, and then say, “Well, hang on a sec. That might be misinterpreted and come across in that way. And the answer you’ve given to that again, could be misinterpreted and taken out of context.” And that’s what you’re there to do.
Anne:
I think the first reason why we came to find you was for life, obviously, which is a different kind of training, I guess, then people who needed it more basic level. So people do have nerves even with training. Is there any particular tip that you could consider offering to anyone who’s considering or has to be going live on camera? Whether it’s with the mainstream media or in general?
Martin:
Nerves are always a part, I think, of doing a live television. Particularly, there’s something particularly exposing about being in front of cameras and going live. The thing I always say is actually that’s not a bad thing, because it will hopefully keep you on your toes to make you aware of the fact that you are live, and what you’re saying will be listened to. But the danger of course is where it can become crippling. And you get some people that … it doesn’t happen so often, but it does happen where people literally dry up and can’t say a thing. I mean, what I always say is remember it is television, no one dies, not normally. And just remember, there are other things which you’ve done in your life that actually are far more scary and just to try and keep it into perspective. And I think that that is what I would say is an important thing to remember about doing live interviews, is exactly that, that no one dies. It is just tele, and that can help you navigate your way through it.
Anne:
And that’s interesting because the other day, I took part in the online version of TED Conference, called TED Women 2020. And one of the keynotes of the day was a conversation with Gloria Steinem, and she was phenomenal. It was very interesting. But I realized in the middle of her interview that one of her biggest challenges in her career was actually fear of public speaking, which was very shocking given the amount of speaking that she’s done across her career. So with that in mind, do you have any tips to anyone about public speaking, something you could offer to our listeners?
Martin:
I think it’s interesting hearing … I hadn’t heard that …
Martin:
I think it’s interesting hearing. I hadn’t heard that example and that anecdote, but I think most people do find it pretty terrifying. And despite the fact that those people that you watch, listen, and hear doing a presentation in front of a Ted audience with hundreds of people in the audience, a couple of thousand people in the audience, or doing an interview very well and looking very much in charge and confident and all the rest of it. It’s like most things in life. They’ve got there by practicing, by planning, by thinking things through. And although it might look spontaneous and it might look that they haven’t really put much thought into it, they have.
Martin:
And even those people right at the very, very top of their game, they’re all have spent a long time preparing and thinking. And I think I might’ve mentioned this earlier, the moment you get complacent, the moment you think you don’t need to do that, that’s the really dangerous point. But I think also, I don’t know whether this is just me, but I remember when I was younger, when faced with those kinds of things I would kind of keep putting it off, keep putting it off, doing the prep. Because almost doing the prep was just as scary. And all that not doing the preparation and doing the proper planning and doing all the hard stuff means is that you go in ill prepared and that’s where things really come unstuck.
Anne:
So thank you so much for the time that you’ve given me so far. If that’s okay, we’re going to switch it up and I’m going to ask you a few closing questions.
Martin:
Of course.
Anne:
What is your favorite word?
Martin:
I like words which sound funny. And I’m not sure that I have a particular word, but this is deeply frivolous. But there are certain names which just sound funny. And the names Eric and Bernard are just, I’m very glad that I’m not called Eric or Bernard. I’m really sorry to all the Erics and all the Bernards that are listening. But words like that, which just make me smile. They just sound funny.
Anne:
I understand. Bernard is not great in French either.
Martin:
Is it not? That’s interesting. Why is it that Bernard sounds a bit funny? Why is it do you think? What is it?
Anne:
Yeah. It just sounds like a really annoying character from an ’80s French movie in my head. Sorry again to all Bernard and Bernards.
What song best represents you?
Martin:
Oh gosh. So anyone that knows Something Going On by Todd Terry will probably sympathize with me. Anything that makes me dance. A funky vocal house. Like everybody, I’ve not been going clubbing much since March, but actually even before that, my clubbing days were very much behind me. But my listening to house music days and my dancing days are definitely not behind me. And when the gyms are open, that’s when I listen to my house music and I listened to things like Todd Terry, Something Going on in my Soul. And I’m normally bopping around the gym looking real idiot, but I don’t care.
Anne:
That’s awesome. I don’t know if I told you, but when I was younger for many years I was a singer. And even while the gyms are closed here, I actually walk around whenever I have enough time and it’s not too cold out. Yeah. I sing to myself in the street.
Martin:
It has to be done. It has to be done.
Anne:
In my mask. Let it be said. I think we may have covered this, but one of my favorite question to ask is what would you say to your younger self if you could send yourself a message?
Martin:
It will be all right. I do think a hallmark of being a teenager is surprise to have teenage anx and to sort of worry about so many things. And God knows there are lots of things to worry about. But when I think about all of the things that I did used to worry about, they all turned out to be pretty inconsequential and things that I needn’t have worried about. Plenty of other things to worry about. And so it’ll be all right. Work hard, do the right thing, and that’s all you can do. And also don’t worry about the things which you can’t change. I think all of us in life spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about loads and loads of things which we can have zero impact on, where there are lots of things much more immediate and close to home that you can really have a significant impact on by thinking about them, worrying about them, and doing something about them. Rather than just worrying, think about what can you change, what could you do differently to change the outcome of whatever it is that you’re worrying about.
Anne:
That’s beautiful. Thank you. Next, what book is next to your bed or on your desk or both?
Martin:
It’s a book called ‘Tricks Journalists Play’. And the reason why I’m reading that is I don’t ever think that I have got all of the knowledge that I want in order to make my consultancy as effective as possible. And I have lots of it, the knowledge, I think, I hope, but I’m always out there looking for other little ideas. And knowing the tricks that journalists play is an invaluable part of providing good media training so that you can flag up what you shouldn’t do in response to those tricks. So that’s the book that I’m reading at the moment.
Anne:
I love it. Thank you.
Martin:
It’s a good book.
Anne:
Actually, I’m going to put that in my Amazon basket. That sounds great. Where would you escape to given our current situation? Where would you fly off to right now, if you could?
Martin:
It’s going to sound a little bit of an obvious answer, but I would go back to the island group where I lived on my desert island. And actually, although I would visit my island, I would also visit the inhabited island, which is about 10 miles away from my island where my adopted family still live. Because in the effort to simplify the story, what I didn’t talk about was the time that I spent living with the people out there. And I haven’t seen them for nearly 20 years now and I would love to go back. And I think that the current restrictions for all of us have reminded us of the wonderful thing of being able to travel when we can. And that’s where I would go. I found myself throughout lockdown, my mind drifting off to my island that I was on. And the people that I still know out there. My screensaver on my computer is an image taken from the air of my desert Island. So yeah, undoubtedly, it would be there.
Anne:
I hope you can go next year.
Martin:
Hopefully. Yeah.
Anne:
Is there one person that you think we should all know about, anyone that you love? Politician writer, musician, journalist activist.
Martin:
The first person that comes into my mind is a journalist, a friend of mine here, different generation of journalist, his name is Matthew Parris. He writes beautifully. He writes for The Times. He’s one of those people, whenever you hear his opinion on something, you think, “That’s so sensible and so right.” And I’m sure not every one of his views is sensible or right, but he’s just one of those wise old eggs. And actually he was a bit of a hero to me when I was growing up because he kind of had a similar career to the one that I’ve carved out for myself. And so I’ve always looked up to him, he’s a friend now. And I would suggest that anyone reads his written many books, made documentaries. He also likes islands.
Anne:
I get it.
Martin:
So he and I have kind of an affection for those things. But yeah, he’s a good guy. And if you’re not familiar with his work and you like the kind of things he writes about, he’s an interesting person to follow and explore his work.
Anne:
Wonderful. And let’s close with my favorite question. So Martin, in this moment or at any point, what brings you happiness?
Martin:
Good food, red wine, and good conversation. All mixed up. And warm baths. Warm baths are greatly underrated as a way of delivering happiness. That’s probably the things which I would highlight.
Anne:
Wonderful. Thank you so much for giving me so much of your time today. I will dutifully prepare show notes where people will be able to find obviously the documentary, The Real Castaway and details of your company, the media training. Where can people find you online?
Martin:
So if they just Google Coconut Communications, they will hopefully, I think probably most places around the world come up with my company name, which incidentally has it’s name and the roots of the name and of course dessert islands to add logic. I’m assuming that, that would be obvious, but just in case it isn’t. So yeah, if you just Google coconut communications, you’ll normally come across me quite quickly.
Anne:
Thanks. That’s brilliant. Martin, thank you again. It was absolutely wonderful. I hope you have a lovely evening.
Martin:
Thank you.
Anne:
Thanks again to Martin for being my guest on the show today, you can find him online at coconutcommunications.tv. And of course, all of the links are included in the show notes. So that’s it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you’ll join us again next time. Our theme music is by Connor Haffenan. The artwork is by Bran Ponto special thanks to Pete and Joel for editing and sound. You can soon find all of my episodes and find out more about my projects www.annevmuhlethaler.com. If you don’t know how to spell it, it’s also in the show notes. And you can also follow me on Instagram @_outoftheclouds.
If you can, I would love it if you would rate and review the show on iTunes, it does help other people find it and I’d appreciate that very, very much.
Until next time, be well, be safe. Remember hand washing, mask, social distancing, all of that good stuff.