OCTOBER 12TH, 2020 | 01:05:39 | S1:E7
In this episode, host Anne Muhlethaler is joined by her good friend, curator, journalist and teacher Paolo Ferrarini (@paolostyleops).
Paolo started his career in trend forecasting before becoming a design journalist and teacher at several of Europe’s most prestigious schools. He writes for the Cool Hunting and Italian design title Interni as well. The two met a few years back in Milan, and Anne calls herself lucky to have the opportunity to spend more time together during a couple of press trips (which she organised), back in the days when they could, you know, travel!
Paolo shared the story of how his career started, his passion for great craftsmanship and photography, including a course in self-portraiture, pre-selfies that is.
The talented journalist and curator offers bold thoughts on the future of fashion and how companies should create content out of love, making authenticity a company strategy, rather than merely a philosophy.
Paolo, a podcaster himself, tells Anne about interviewing one of his idols Debbie Millman for Edit Naples, and his new talk project, the Human Difference talks.
They finish on Anne’s favorite questions:
What is your favorite word? “Incantevole” – enchanting in English – like the song by the band Subsonica
What brings you happiness? My family and the people on quick dial in my phone, that’s what brings me the most joy.
Enjoy!
Selected Links from Episode
Discover Paolo’s work and projects on his website: http://paoloferrarini.it/
On Instagram @paolostyleops and on Twitter : https://twitter.com/paolostylops
And check out his podcast Parola Progetto
Francesco Morace & Future Concept Lab
The article I quote about limits to growth
Documentary : Margiela in his own words https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/movies/martin-margiela-in-his-own-words-review.html
Fear of God : https://fearofgod.com/
Pyer Moss https://pyermoss.com/
Virgil Abloh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgil_Abloh
Paolo’s interview of Debbie for Cool Hunting and his interview on the new podcast for Edit
The song that best represents Paolo: Sunshine Reggae
Full Episode Transcript
Anne Muhlethaler:
Hi. Hello. Bonjour. Buongiorno. This is Out Of The Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness. I’m your host, Anne Muhlethaler. Today I am joined by my friend, Paolo Ferrarini. Paolo is a design journalist and a teacher, as well as a podcaster. He has many, many strings to his bow, so I will let him do the honors of introducing himself.
Anne Muhlethaler:
We met in Milan a few years ago, and then again in Paris, and then again in New York. We almost met in Dubai last year, back in the times when travel was possible. It feels like a lifetime ago. I am incredibly grateful to have had a chance to get to know Paolo over the course of the last few years. He’s a deep thinker, and I really greatly enjoyed the insights that he shared during this particular conversation. Without further ado, I give you my conversation with Paolo Ferrarini. Welcome, Paolo. It’s so nice to see you.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Thank you, thank you. It’s my pleasure.
Anne Muhlethaler:
How are you today?
Paolo Ferrarini:
I’m okay. It’s the end of a busy long day, and it’s nice to chat with you.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh, good. I’m glad. I took a little bit of time to sort of read through, you would say in French, your ‘parcour’, your life journey. There is a lot of amazing stuff on your website. I mean, I would have needed an entire week to go through all of the content that you’ve produced first as a writer. There’s a lot of talks, and you’ve participated in written essays as well. I thought maybe we could start with you introducing yourself in your own words for my listeners.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Okay. My name is Paolo Ferrarini. I am a teacher, I am a curator, and I am a writer. As a writer, I am basically a journalist. I write for several magazines online and offline. The two main collaborations that I have now going on is COOL HUNTING, coolhunting.com. It’s an American digital publication. I’ve been writing for them for the past 11 years, so it’s a lot. It’s A lot.
Paolo Ferrarini:
The most recent collaboration, which I’m very proud of, is with Interni, which is the leading Italian design magazine, where I write this monthly column, which is titled Design for Fashion, which explains a bit about what’s my main interest, which is the thresholds, the borders between fashion and design. I teach a lot always around these topics, and in particular at Accademia Costume & Moda in Rome where I live, but I’ve been teaching in several other schools during the years in Italy and abroad as a visiting professor, or as a resident professor. What else? I’m a curator, so I curate contents that take different shapes, such as exhibitions, small ones, publications of sort, and series of talks, which is one of the things that you mentioned before. I do a lot of stuff. It’s very hard to explain my job to grandmothers.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I can just about imagine.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yes. I say, “I write,” and that’s basically it, and they basically understand. I’m a journalist. That’s the short version.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh, good. Thanks for that. Well, you and I met I think at the time that you were at Marangoni Institute?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Anne Muhlethaler:
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you have taught different subjects for different universities?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yes.
Anne Muhlethaler:
You started at the Politecnico in Milan?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Anne Muhlethaler:
You taught at Bocconi, and you said you were a visiting professor at Central Saint Martins in London. Now, one of the things that stuck with me when we got to know each other is at Marangoni, you were a trend forecasting professor. I’d love for you to explain to us what does it entail? What are you teaching at the Accademia in Rome at the moment?
Paolo Ferrarini:
A little bit of context. I started working as a trend forecaster and trend researcher in 1999 at Future Concept Lab in Milan. One of the things that I was doing back then was also teaching. I was in charge of fashion and communication trends. Fashion with Valentina Ventrelli and also communication trends. We did a lot of consultancy, of course. That’s trend research institutes. They’re not nonprofit. They’re for profit, and they sell trend books at the beginning, or trend researches, specific researches to companies. This was one of the things that I was doing.
Paolo Ferrarini:
But since the founder of Future Concept Lab, Francesco Morace, he was a professor at Politecnico di Milano, together with Valentina, I was his assistant. And also at [inaudible 00:05:46] Academy. These were the first two schools in Milan where I started to teach how to make trend research. We were teaching students how to understand trend research, how to make trend research, but also how to read trend researches, because several of these students were going to work very soon in big companies. This was part of my job.
Paolo Ferrarini:
I worked at Future Concept Lab for more or less 15 years. A few years ago, I started freelancing. But I kept teaching because that’s always been one of my favorite things to do. That’s why when we met, I was not working at Future Concept Lab anymore, but I was still teaching at Istituto Marangoni because I was living in Milan. Then I moved to Rome and everything’s changed.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I forgot to ask you, what did you study?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Contemporary arts. In particularly, phenomenology of style. That was my major.
Anne Muhlethaler:
You might have to dig into that one a bit for me.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yes. That was the most awesome things that I met during my years at university. Phenomenology of style is a discipline that puts together basically art and literature in order to understand cultural movements, and find sintonize between different fields. That has always been my passion, because also, when I was a teenage, I was kind of schizophrenic because I was in love with music, but I was in love with cinema, and I was in love with arts and design and fashion. I didn’t know how to find the balance between all these passions that I had.
Paolo Ferrarini:
When I met Professor Renato Barilli, it was an epiphany, literally. Literally. My thesis was pretty experimental because basically, at Bologna University, there were no fashion studies back then. There was no design studies, but only art in all of its forms, but applied arts for some things. But basically, it was art history. I proposed to professor Barilli to work on design and fashion.
Paolo Ferrarini:
So my thesis was about the design of Italian footwear after World War II. The birth of Italian fashion made in Italy. All the whatever is in the history books. I was trying to understand the history of contemporary Italian fashion through the lens of shoes and design. And it was pretty experimental because there were parts in which I made comparisons, of course, it was a phenomenology, comparisons between the work, for example, of Andy Warhol and Elio Fiorucci. Or Enzo Mari an Italian designer, and Kurage. Or Ferragamo and the Pier Luigi Nervi were doing this.
Paolo Ferrarini:
I discovered that they were doing the exact same structures for stadiums and sports venues, [inaudible 00:09:08], the architect and Salvatore Ferragamo to make platforms and heals. Well, my dream, I don’t know if I will ever make it, but would be to write a book with a parallel history of shoes and chairs.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh my God. I love chairs and I love shoes. I’m buying your book. Go ahead.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Okay. I’ll start writing that. Then after university, I wanted to study something in fashion and Bologna, the area of Bologna of Emilia Romania, there’s a lot of fashion production. So back in the days there was this, it was not a masters, but it was a post-graduate course aimed at forming product managers. So I started attending these course to become a product manager. These course made me realize that I was not going to be a product manager, that I wanted to study to talk about fashion, not make fashion. I mean, not a designer. And I don’t care about how many buttons are there in a shirt or how many meters of thread it takes to make t-shirt. Well, it’s not my thing. I’m very happy that there’s people who love to do that, not me.
Paolo Ferrarini:
And so that’s when I realized that I wanted to do something more, maybe cerebral and be more intellectual. And one of the teachers at this course was Francesca Marotta. And so I started working for him and for future concept. So that was the link between my studies and my profession.
Anne Muhlethaler:
We’ve never talked about that.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yeah. You know what? I’ve been lucky. I realized that I’ve been very lucky to meet these great people and that show me the direction of what, now I can say after a few decades, has been at least my career so far.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah. That makes sense. I was going to lead us into talking about production and the creative process. Because as a writer, as a journalist for COOL HUNTING, you document the creative process. Actually, we got to know each other better when you were on a press trip and you were documenting the process of making beautiful men’s leather shoes in a fantastic factory on the outskirts of Naples. So I’m guessing that your love of this process of the backstage process of making things started when you did that course, or is it, I feel like we share a love of craftsmanship.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yes, absolutely. I like to understand how ideas are born and how things are born. I’m very curious. And probably because I cannot make things with my hands. I really admire people who can do that. And it doesn’t matter if it’s a piece of technology or a leather bag. It doesn’t really matter. As long as I see something that works, that does its job perfectly, I’m fascinated by that. And it really doesn’t matter the field or the goal. It’s very interesting sometimes to understand the design process. So how ideas became a project, but it’s also extremely interesting to see how these project becomes a thing, an object.
Paolo Ferrarini:
I remember when I was a kid, of course, as I said before, music was one of my favorite things. I was living in a tiny, tiny village in the Italian countryside. My mother was working in fashion. And so I had fashion magazines at home. My father was a teacher and he was in love with design. And so he was buying all sorts of design magazine. So I spent afternoons, in particular during the summer, afternoons browsing through these amazing magazines. And the other thing that made me dream to go away and find something different where CDs, because of course music was physical, was not totally digital.
Paolo Ferrarini:
And I was reading all the slips, tiny booklets inside of the CDs, and it was reading all those names and I was learning those names by heart because I wanted to imagine how those people were able to make those beautiful things. There was no internet. So it was just pure fantasy. It was just pure imagination. I couldn’t check on the name of the producer or the sound engineer or the writers. It was very, very difficult to find that kind of information. So I was imagining these people working backstage, making these beautiful things. So if I have to trace back a moment when I realized that there was something that was at backseat-
Anne Muhlethaler:
The making of process.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yes. And one other things that made my day, was when DVDs started to have the bonus content. So with all the things that showed how things were made. So probably my passion was a desire to escape maybe, or a desire to get in touch on a deeper level with the things that I loved. And luckily enough, one of the things that COOL HUNTING does is getting in touch with creative ideas and creative minds in the moment when ideas are generated. So factory visits, studio visits, the target let’s say of COOL HUNTING is of course the general public, but in particular, we focus on the creative class. We focus on people that will find an inspiration, reading our articles to make new stuff out of it. It’s not about the perfect guide to buy the perfect piece of furniture for your home. It’s more about understanding idea. So that was a very, very lucky meeting.
Paolo Ferrarini:
So they sent me all over Europe and sometimes also abroad to see how, for example, fabrics are made, cars are made shoes, bags, rubber soles, food as well. Like the production of [inaudible 00:16:08].
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh my, I would come to that.
Paolo Ferrarini:
And documenting these things is literally a dream come true.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That’s wonderful. I know it’s going to sound really hard to do that, but is there one experience, one factory tour or workshop that has marked you more than any other that you can recall?
Paolo Ferrarini:
I cannot [inaudible 00:16:32] because it would sound-
Anne Muhlethaler:
Only if it’s true.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s true because, well, that factory in Naples, it’s still in my heart because that day was awesome. But one other factory that I really, really enjoyed visiting is Cotonificio Albini. Albini they make cotton for men’s shirting in particular. So they just make the fabric for shirts, but they range from Zara to Giorgio Armani. So they basically make the fabric for shirts for men’s wear in particular, also woman women’s wear, but they’re specialized in men’s wear. And for all sorts of brands all over the world and there’s a factory, which is in these tiny village, not far from Bergamo. And the factory basically is half of the village.
Paolo Ferrarini:
And there’s a passion. You can literally see the essence of Made in Italy there. So people that really have a passion for what they do have super high level of technology, but at the same time, the work of the machines is always, always checked by humans. So it’s a very, very peculiar process because machines are manmade, are programmed by humans. They make their job. It’s beautiful, but not perfect. The human eye and the human end make that process perfect. So that’s real Made in Italy, the perfect match between technology and craftsmanship.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I really appreciate the work that you do with COOL HUNTING, because a lot of people also don’t put value on certain goods because they don’t understand how they’re made. So I think in that way, you’re providing people the opportunity to understand. And also I think that for the people who work in these workshops factories, you give them an opportunity to be seen, right? And for their work to be valued and respected.
Paolo Ferrarini:
One thing that when I visit those factories, there’s always a moment in which something clicks. For example, you see an object and you don’t understand how comes that’s so expensive. Then you see how it’s made, how it’s developed, the hard work that is behind it, the selection of the materials, and this is valid for everything from shoes to engines. Then you see how it’s made and you ask yourself how comes it’s so cheap. So that aha moment, when you understand the true value of things. This is what I try to convey every time I write about production. Of course, if I get that aha moment, because sometimes when you visit factories, you understand that maybe there’s not much authenticity. And so in those cases, I don’t write about that. I always have the option of not telling that story.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That’s interesting. I want to add something about this part of your work, because what you did not necessarily explain to our audience is that not only do you write about, but you also photograph. Now, we’ve privately joked about the fact I could be your agent because I’m a really big fan of your photography. I’m totally leading the question, because we’ve discussed this before. Can you tell me how did photography become part of your life? Not only just for work, because I don’t know how you approached it, I’d love for you to talk about.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Well, my first camera was a gift for my 10th birthday and it was a tiny Kodak film camera, of course. I started taking pictures of my friends or the trips I made and I’ve never left photography ever since. I’m a very, very visual person. I tend to remember much better images rather than names or numbers. Numbers are a nightmare for me. So I live well in a world that is just made of images and words. Pictures are my diary. Pictures are the way by which I remember things. So it’s a very, very personal thing. There was a moment in my life when I started taking photography classes where I was thinking seriously to make photography become my job. But then I realized that I love photography so much that I wanted to keep it as my passion, not my job.
Paolo Ferrarini:
I kind of didn’t want to pollute my relationship with photography. Of course, I use it for work a lot. I was taking lots of pictures, for example, in my research work for future concept lab, when we were documenting street styles or emerging trends all over the world. I was traveling a lot, taking pictures of places and supermarkets and people, industry and so on and so forth. And now I do that for COOL HUNTING, but I considered that as a compliment to the words.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I completely agree. So I remember you told me you did a course with a photography teacher based in Spain, I think. Could you maybe talk us through that?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yes. Her name is Cristina Nunez, she’s a Spanish photographer. She used to live in Italy for several years. She’s an artist and she started taking self-portraits and she did that for years and years and years. And she eventually developed a method of learning to understand yourself through photography. And basically, self-portraits so it’s not selfies, but it’s self-portraits. And there were all kinds of exercises that we were doing from taking pictures with the camera onto your heart, not in front of your face, but onto your heart in order to feel the camera. And that is one of the things that they remembered the most.
Paolo Ferrarini:
You were supposed to take good pictures, but without even looking through the viewfinder, but just using your body to understand photography. And that was really resonated with me. That was very, very deep. And of course there were also exercises, for example, acting. We had to enact our superheroes or another very interesting-
Anne Muhlethaler:
Who was your superhero?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Superman, of course. Superman. Or taking selfies, self-portraits with family members. That was also very, very, very tough. So it’s not about the technique of photography, but it’s about the content. It’s about the relationship of your face, your body, your identity with photography. Yes, I enjoyed that course. I did actually two courses. So the first and the second level of that photography class.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I’m going to look her up. So it’s a funny segue because I think it was yesterday I flagged an article. I opened the guardian because I saw this in my feed. It was about Instagram has just turned 10 years old. I was wondering how do you feel about photography or do you have any thoughts about Instagram given your expertise in modes of communications?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Well, it’s a great tool for research. I always invite my students to document their research processes through photography. Instagram is a great tool. In particular because there’s the function of having bookmarks and you can create topics kind of folders. So you can see someone else’s picture and you say, “Oh my God, this could be interesting for that project.” So it’s very, very useful as a research tool. But Instagram to me is one perfect example of how you overcome big problems. You might remember the first Instagram, all the images, they looked like Polaroids.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I remember.
Paolo Ferrarini:
They were filters and basically, those filters were used to mask the low quality of the images because camera phones were not as powerful as today. And still screens were pretty big already. So in order to have a decent quality without big pixels and long story short, the quality of the images was crap.
Paolo Ferrarini:
And so filters were meant to kind of give that blur that was extremely poetic, but of course it was meant to overcome a problem and think about 10 years, flash forward 10 years, and think about filters today that are super animated things. You can change your face, you can do all sorts of stuff. And this is the perfect example of how a problem can become your biggest opportunity. So they didn’t leave filters behind, but they made filters become a new category. It’s a new category of product literally. You can sell filters. There’s people that leave just by making filters in just 10 years. So it’s a beautiful story. Also from the point of view of what’s behind the app we use.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Absolutely. I remember the early beginnings, it segues into the next question I had prepared for you, which is you’ve moderated a lot of talks around design and fashion and communication. There was one talk that I looked up a few years ago. I think it was in 2016, which was called [inaudible 00:26:57] too many stories. And it was about the ever-present theme of storytelling around design and fashion and communication. So I was wondering what you felt about this notion of storytelling today. How do you feel brands communicate? Is there still too much storytelling? Are people understanding actually how to tell stories?
Paolo Ferrarini:
There’s a lot of communication nowadays, and I’m happy because there is a great need for curators. So on both sides, curators that suggest companies, which is the right content to make, and those curators that help select the information. Think about, for example, the success of newsletters. Well, a newsletter is a selection of the content of the week or the content of the day or the content of the month. So I have a point of view. I select things that I think that could be interesting for you. Now, there’s websites that select newsletters, so where you can find a suggestion for your perfect newsletter. So we already are kind of second stage of curation of content. So it’s amazing because it’s beautiful to have all these information, but of course, there’s a lot of noise too. So I strongly believe that the profession of curators, selectors probably it will change in five years.
Paolo Ferrarini:
It will be completely different, but it’s a figure that in companies will be very, very much needed. Think about, for example, the social media managers, 15 years ago, talking about having a social media manager was like saying to a company, “Okay, let’s go to Mars.” And they would say, “I don’t need that because Facebook is just for chit chat, blah, blah, blah. And there’s nothing more.” And now if you don’t have a social media manager, you’re not going anywhere, if you are a big company. So I think it’s the same for curation or selection of content. I don’t know if these would be the name for the future of this profession. I cannot even imagine how these will evolve, but for the work of company, that will be a key figure.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I really appreciate that you went into that direction. In my current job as a consultant, I hear companies often talk about content manager. And what I have found most often is that the content managers don’t have any influence on the content. That they’re actually effectively plugging in what is necessary in terms of the marketing and sales. And I think this is why a lot of companies find themselves very consumed by the production of content that doesn’t necessarily yield any results with their followers, even with a brand loyalist, because it doesn’t actually resonate. You need to have a curatorial point of view. You need to have a real reason to put this content forward outside of just wanting to make sales.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Content needs to come from a place of love. I’m saying something very, very heavy here, but I strongly believe that. Everybody now is looking for authenticity. Oh, where is authenticity? I think that companies should find their role in the world, easy as that. They should go into therapy sometimes. They should understand that, of course companies are made to make money, but that’s not all. And people recognize that immediately. So love, authenticity. These are the things that companies should tackle making life better. And when I say better, I mean, happier, not just more efficient and it’s such a concrete and tangible thing.
Paolo Ferrarini:
We’re not talking about, let’s make love not war. It’s not philosophy. This is strategy. And it has to come from something that is truly deeply in the DNA of the company. And then of course, there’s all sorts of professional figures that can help you find that. But if companies, founders, the CEOs, whoever is in charge of defining the big strategies, if they don’t understand themselves, what’s their true core, they can make stuff, but they don’t make a difference. They don’t make history.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah. One of the newsletters I’ve recently subscribed to, it was a very interesting piece, thought piece because he was reading a book called Post Growth World. What is our world post growth? And I think that what a lot of what you’re referring to is most companies only go after getting to certain size falls on that. How do we grow? Some of the most important coaches and figures in the world like Tony Robbins say things like, “If we don’t grow, we die.” What do you do with your company? If you look at something else as a metric for success that is not making more money, more sales or more product?
Paolo Ferrarini:
You know what? I come from the countryside, I’m a country boy. And my parents, my grandparents, they grew up and they worked in the countryside and I know seasons. And if you know seasons, you know that for something to grow, something has to die. So growth is constant, not necessarily growth is exponential. So growth is every spring, every summer you incredible growth, but then you have to see things die and you have to store stuff and you have to get ready for storm or a bad season. Of course, growth is constant. It can be constant, but not never ending.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Sometimes we have to be humble enough to understand that, okay, I can go not that far. I can go there because then I have to wait until something else happens, a more organic way also of considering business. And there’s a lot of businesses that work this way already. It’s a reality. Maybe it’s not the big multi-nationals that everybody is so angry with and it’s not by chance. There’s a very, very good reason to be angry at some of these corporations.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I really appreciate, that’s a great point of view to offer, to better understand the, not just growth, but the life and death cycles and regeneration as well. So you’ve written a lot about fashion and you’ve got a great expertise in design. And fashion has found different ways to talk about itself. It’s marketed itself very differently over the years in the past, let’s say 15 to 20 years, from obviously print press, to online, to social media via museum exhibitions. Where do you feel fashion can break into next?
Paolo Ferrarini:
I mean, there’s so many things to say about this. I will try to be concise as much as possible. Well, fashion should think about size and duration.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I really like this answer. Go on.
Paolo Ferrarini:
So duration long lasting stuff. I was browsing through a fashion magazine this past weekend. And there was a printed advert from H&M that said, basically clothes made to last. And I was like, “Are you kidding me?” So they got the trend right. Unfortunately, that kind of message cannot come from that kind of company. So now, H&M is trying to advertise slightly more expensive clothes because we’re talking about €30, not 9.99. And they’re made with materials that are meant to last. Okay. So that’s a signal.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Making things that last means redesigning things with duration in mind. So something that is not meant to be used for just one occasion or one season, but something that can be used for more than one season. And it doesn’t mean being basic because yesterday I watched the beautiful documentary Margiela in his own words.mAnd what he made 30 years ago is still incredibly fashionable and incredibly cool. And it’s not basic at all.
Paolo Ferrarini:
I’m thinking about, for example, the new wave of American designers, what they are doing.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Like who, if I can ask?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Like Fear of God, Pyer Moss, also Virgil Abloh. So these new wave of fashion designers that are redesigning the American classic wardrobe through the eye of streetwear meets luxury, they’re doing an incredible job. They let go of seasons. Season meaning commercial seasons, like Spring/Summer, Fall/Winter, Pre-Spring/Summer, Cruise, past whatever. In fashion there’s eight seasons per year, at least, sometimes even more. So they have drops, so they can have like weekly drops or maybe like Fear of God, they released collection number seven a few months ago two years after the previous collection. So think about duration. Think about how things will last.
Paolo Ferrarini:
And in terms of size, I literally mean sizing. So how you shape clothes around people’s bodies. We’re [inaudible 00:37:32]. I’m not talking about sizes in terms of S, M, L, XL and so on and so forth. I’m talking about the shape of the body because there can be people that are super slim and super tall or super slim and super short. Also, the ethnic factor plays a very important role in the shape of our bodies, of our faces. People that make eyewear know that very, very well, because you cannot make the same style of sunglasses for China and for France, because basically the shape of our faces is different. So we have to take that into consideration. If you, as a designer, start designing with these things in mind, things will be more modern, more contemporary, more fit for the time that we are living.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah. And I guess commercially most likely to be a success as well.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yes.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I was going to ask you which brands do you admire today? But I wanted to go outside of fashion as well. I mean, I ask this selfishly because I tend to find there’s always something new to be gained by hearing or having this conversation with particularly journalists, because you get so much access to information in Eunice, who would be on your list?
Paolo Ferrarini:
A brand that I love is Lee Broom. Lee Broom.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh, I know him.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yeah. He’s a great guy. And he’s a designer entrepreneur. He’s very notorious, very famous because he does a very, very interesting installations and great communication. He just released a few days ago, a video for the launch of a new chair that is one of the best videos I’ve seen in the past few months. I’m not going to spoil it, but it’s beautiful. Believe me. It’s beautiful. So, in design, I would say Lee Broom. Another brand that I love in design is Hay, H-A-Y. It’s a Northern European brand and they make very simple colorful harnessed, I want to say pieces of furniture and they sell online a lot. And they’ve been very successful during the pandemic as well, and it’s a very, very nice project.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Now, we’ve talked a little bit about, well, you have so many different things that you do. So as a curator, so you were on the committee for the Barrera design days and you also were for the Milan Design Awards. And I went to Milan for work years ago. I highly disliked my experience of Milan at the time. I found it a really exhausting city and I felt it physically strangely enough. And when I went back a few years ago, I felt the city had transformed. And I was wondering, what do you think has the design industry done for that city, and as a sort of a regenerator in this sort of renewal. And do you imagine this is something that will continue? I was wondering if we could pick your thoughts on that and what can design do for the environment that it lives in?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Well, the case Milan, I think is a unique in the world. It’s basically impossible to replicate because first of all, Milan is a tiny city. It’s not as big as many Europeans cities. It’s not even two million inhabitants. And also there’s a high density source of the surface of the city is very small, compared to Rome where I live, which is massive. Design is literally everywhere because you have. The production of design in the outskirts of the city, in some cases also inside of the city, some of the Milanese brands, they don’t even say Made in Italy, they say made Made in Milan, because actually it’s true. Everything is made from scratch in Milan.
Paolo Ferrarini:
You have the designer studio in the city, you have the schools, the design schools, and since education in design is a business nowadays they’re growing and growing and growing. And there’s several of these schools. You have the retail and you have the communication as well as the trade. So you have the design to magazines and you have the Salone del Mobile, the Milan design week. So there’s no other city in the world that has all that it takes to make design part of the DNA of the city itself.
Paolo Ferrarini:
In addition, in the past few years, since design is a very, very important financial and economic factor for the life of the city, they found very, very clever partnerships, also with the municipality. So with the city administration to make meaningful stuff for citizens that are not in design, not design experts or not architects or not designers themselves. So for example, places such as Base, a former factory that has been abandoned for years. And now it’s a hub for events, creativity. There’s a tiny hostel, and there’s beautiful things or redesigning specific areas of the CD through pedestrian areas or cycling lanes and so on and so forth.
Paolo Ferrarini:
So more and more design is part of the life of the majority of people in Milan. It touches everybody’s life sooner or later. So it’s so spread over. It’s totally fused. It’s so everywhere that I think it cannot happen anywhere else in the world. And it’s not just Milan design week, because many people know Milan just for that beautiful, amazing week where Milan becomes a truly Mediterranean city. Because Milan looks North, Milan doesn’t look South. I mean, it inspires to be Switzerland or Austria or Germany, but they don’t aspire to be Rome or Naples. They don’t care about the Mediterranean. The only glimpse of Mediterranean that you have in Milan is Liguria. Jokes apart, Milan is a city where usually there’s not so much openness and warmth of spirit. And during Milan design week, you see that happening. We missed it so much this year. We really, really, really missed it. I’m sure next year will be even stronger.
Anne Muhlethaler:
There is one person that we both admire very much, and this is a lady that not everybody who’s listening to this might familiar with. And that is Debbie Millman. You described her in the interview that you did with her for COOL HUNTING, as a careful observer of the world of design. She is a designer and illustrator and author, a teacher, a branding consultant. I know she’s a hero of yours and you got to meet her at Design Indaba and to interview her. So can you tell me how it was? I loved your interview and I loved what she shared about branding. And I was wondering if you wanted to talk about it a little bit.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I mean, listen, I’ve discovered Debbie Millman through her interview with Tim Ferris, which was, I mean, one of the best interviews I’ve ever heard. And then I heard her interview him on her podcast because she has had one of the longest standing podcasts, which she had launched in 2005. And it’s one of the most genuinely beautiful conversations I’ve heard between two human beings. So that’s why I’m particularly keen to hear about what she’s like in person.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Well, interviewing her was a dream of mine, basically. So I was like the [inaudible 00:45:30] is a hero. So I was not sure what to expect because sometimes when you meet your heroes, you’re kind of disappointed, but that was not the case. We had a slot of 20 minutes because that day she was doing so many interviews, of course. Of course, I made probably 30% of the questions that I wanted to ask her. After 20 minutes, the press person came and said, “Debbie, you have another interview.” And she looked at her, she looked at me and she said, “Paolo, wait, stay here. Don’t go away. I’ll be back.”
Paolo Ferrarini:
She finished the next interviews. And we chatted probably for slightly less than one hour more. So the 20 minutes turned to be like 80 minutes. We went to dinner and the day after we were at this social event and we chatted all afternoon. So we became friends basically. Well, last week I interviewed her live for a podcast. So it’s like the word upside down for me. So having to interview the person who inspired my own podcast, this new podcast is a for edit, which is a design fair that takes place in Naples in mid-October.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I read about it on the COOL HUNTING and I started following them on Instagram. It looks amazing.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yes. I was there last year in spring, and it was the first edition. EDIT is an independent, tiny fair, curated and conceived by two women, Domitilla Dardi and Emilia Petrucelli. They’re two great women. There’s a more cultural side, which is Domitilla and the more commercial side, which is Emilia. And the goal is to promote the design. That is not the classic industrial design, but not even the art design. Design additions that not necessarily is limited additions, but addition that can be small or can very easily become producible on an industrial scale.
Paolo Ferrarini:
So these connects also to the idea of duration that I was mentioning before for fashion. So it’s a [inaudible 00:47:58] and you have independent designers. You have bigger brands, because for example, this year, there will be Moroso and Foscarini as well, which is big, big brands, but also young designers or small cabinet makers. So there was more than 50 realities. Anyway, I’m doing this podcast for them. And Debbie is in the jury that will select the best work of the fair. Unfortunately, she cannot make it to Naples, but still we invited her to be interviewed and to have a chat about design and what happens around creativity nowadays. So I had the chance to speak again with her and that was beautiful.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I am so looking forward to that.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Dreams come true my dear.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I’m so happy to hear that as well. So this next question is a dedication to Debbie Paolo. So why does design matter?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Well, I want to say not all design really matters. When it’s well done, well thought, when there’s culture, when there’s values, oh, it matters my dear a lot, because it’s the perfect way to merge what we have and what we wish. Because design is about projects and projects are not about having the crystal ball and finding success easily and immediately with a formula. No, no, no. Design is about, I have an idea and I want to make it happen. So the future of design is not what happens because it has to happen. It’s something that happens because I make it happen. And that’s the kind of future that I love. And that’s the kind of future of design.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That’s beautiful. Before we got on the call today, I was listening to your interview of Giorgia Lupi, who I thought it was really wonderful. And so we haven’t talked too much about your podcast, but I was really happy I listened to it because it’s called Parola Progetto. My understanding of Italian is pretty good, but there’s one thing that sort of escaped me. Could you please explain to our listeners, what does Progetto mean in the context of your podcast? And tell us a little bit about it.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Well, Progetto basically means projects, but in the widest sense is the best translation of the word design. So it’s literally like the design word. Let’s talk about design, let’s use words that describe design. So my ambition is to make people understand design without showing design, but just talking about design. In fact, I have a very, very small social media presence for this podcast. I never publish, for example, the works of the people I interview. I just put a portrait of the person I’m interviewing and that’s it. If you’re interested, if our words make you ring a bell, come on guys, you go online and you type and you search and just start your own research, because I truly believe that the things that you find yourself are the things that you remember the most.
Paolo Ferrarini:
It’s not that I make you the perfect presentation of the work of this person. It’s not my job. I do that with other things, but with my podcasts, it’s an experiment. I don’t know if it’s a successful or not, if it makes real sense, but I have a lot of fun doing that.
Anne Muhlethaler:
They’re beautiful conversations. These sound very enjoyable for both you and the other person that you talk to.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Like 90% of the people I interview, I met them before. They are people I met for work or because of mutual friends or people I admire. And I try to get in touch with them. You know what, when I do very, very long interviews, like in the case of Debbie Millman in Cape town at Design Indaba, of course they have a limited space when they have to transcribe and write the interview, I cannot make like 50 pages or a super long interview. And sometimes it’s very, very hard to cut and to edit and to select. So I said, okay, I need a space where I can be free to do whatever I want. And the podcast seemed to me like the perfect solution.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I’m the same as you. This is why I gravitated towards podcast as a medium that I listened to so much because I enjoy long form. And I think the reason why I, for example, got into Debbie Millman’s podcast in particular, is the beauty that comes from the long form conversations.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Exactly.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So I’d like to ask you about your latest tour project. I’ll let you explain it.
Paolo Ferrarini:
The series is a human difference talks. I was contacted during the pandemic by Matteo Ragni, which is one of the people I interviewed for Parola Progetto. He’s one of the best Italian designers that is also a creative director for several companies. One of which is Excel Extra Light. It’s a company that basically does form design. So they basically make plastic materials that are super lightweight, particular souls. For example, they make the material of Crocs, Croc shoes are made with their materials. They work in between fashion and product design because they also develop some products with designers, such as Karim Rashid, for example. And so they wanted to have a series of talks about this.
Paolo Ferrarini:
We discussed for weeks about the form, about the guests, long story short, we ended up having these topics, which I suggested. Which is when humans make a real difference, not machines, not technologies, but humans make the difference. And then they go towards technology. So I wanted to have different points of view. So the first talk was with Ravi Naidoo, the founder of Design Indaba. Then we will have Karim Rashid, of course designer, then Jerry Lorenza, which is the designer of Fear of God, which I’m very, very grateful that he accepted to be part-
Anne Muhlethaler:
That’s exciting.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yes. He’s a myth. And he’s a such a great guy. Looking forward to discussing with him. And in December, the last appointment is with Sara Maino, she’s the Deputy Director of Vogue Italia and founder of Vogue Talents. And she’s an ambassador of sustainability in fashion. So with her, we will discuss about that. And I was thinking when I saw the list of guests, I was kind of in shock because I thought before the pandemic, these would have been impossible because we have someone from Cape Town, someone from LA, someone from New York and someone from Milan. Of course, before we tended to have events in person, but now it’s absolutely normal to have these.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Of course, we record everything. We have the live chat, and then we record, we edit and we put everything online because I wanted something that was long lasting, something that is not just one more Instagram live discussion that is crappy, that is a low quality. I wanted something a little bit more sophisticated, where the guys have excelled there. They’re great. Very looking forward to the next three episodes. We’re going to have one per month.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I loved the first one. It was really beautiful. It was such a great interview. I almost would have wanted it to be longer, to be honest.
Paolo Ferrarini:
That’s strategic!
Anne M.:
Okay, well, you left me wanting more. So that’s a good sign.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Exactly. The concept of Bento, the Bento Box.
Anne M.:
Absolutely.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Slightly smaller because you have to be full 80%. Not 100% or 120%. Our friend Yancey describes that very well.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Exactly. Thank you so much for that. So I was just going to ask you, 2020 has been a very complicated year and it’s still, it’s not over yet. I was wondering if there was anything specific that you were looking forward to see happen in 2021 and in terms of design, of communication? I mean, we’ve talked about being keen to see Salone del Mobile in Milan coming back, and I’ll be very happy to join you there, but is there anything else that you’re looking forward to?
Paolo Ferrarini:
On personal level or in-
Anne Muhlethaler:
Anything you feel like sharing?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Well, I would love, but this is not something that’s going to happen in 2021, probably would take years. I would like the award of design and award or fashion to focus a little bit more on the relationship with nature. I don’t want to call it sustainability because it’s really just a small part of that. But thinking about how we can find an alliance with nature, period. Easy as that. We do that with food. We do that with the cosmetics, but fashion and design, they have a long way to go. And I really hope that they will accelerate and start to be more in fine tuning with the such contemporary issues.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I really appreciate the way that you are wording it. It resonates a lot with me.
Paolo Ferrarini:
I’m glad.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah. A couple of more questions and then I will let you go. I should tell you, I was watching Gayle King being interviewed by Drew Barrymore because Drew Barrymore’s going to [inaudible 00:58:40], and Gayle King is kind of a legend. And I really, really like her. And Drew asked her, what is her favorite question to ask guests? And she said, “What song best represents you?” And I know it’s tough. So if you don’t have an answer you can let it go. But I just thought as an honor to Gail, what would that be for you?
Paolo Ferrarini:
The song that best represents me?
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yep. It could be that best represents you today. It doesn’t need to be your entire life.
Paolo Ferrarini:
It’s Sunshine Reggae. Sunshine, Sunshine Reggae. Oh my God. I don’t remember now.
Anne Muhlethaler:
It’s okay. I will look it up. What is your favorite word?
Paolo Ferrarini:
‘Incantevole’ Literally means in enchanting. When something is ‘Incantevole’, you are in awe. It’s a world that has a fairy tale quality. Like it’s something magic. When you see something that is ‘Incantevole’, you are speechless. I love when the French people say ‘Enchanté’ which is basically, it’s the same origin. So it is the enchantment. ‘Incantevole’: you make me speechless. You put a spell on me. It’s so, wow. So it’s such a tiny word. There’s so much meaning. There’s also a beautiful song by an Italian band called Subsonica. The title of the song is ‘Incantevole’. And at some point, there’s a sound which is a kind of ‘Incantevole’. It’s something very difficult to describe. Whenever I hear that sound, I feel it in my spine. It’s incredible. It’s like that vibration that makes you physically happen.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Okay. I’m going to need a link. And I’m going to put that in the show notes. I’d love to hear that song. What would you say to your younger self if you could send yourself a message?
Paolo Ferrarini:
The only thing that I regret is not studying ancient Greek and know more about mythology. So probably I would tell my younger self to go for more classical studies because I feel that there’s so much truth in mythology. There’s so much understanding of the human mind and I really, really miss that part of education. So if there’s something that I would suggest is that.
Anne Muhlethaler:
What book is next to your bed or on your desk?
Paolo Ferrarini:
The vocabulary of synonyms and antonyms. ‘Dizionario dei sinonimi e contrari’ in Italian.
Anne Muhlethaler:
For when you write.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yes, because it generates so many ideas. Because sometimes you don’t have the right word to express that specific thing. So I try to go as close as possible. And then with the dictionary, every time is a journey because you end up changing your sentence completely. It’s not that maybe you understand that it’s not just the wrong word, but it’s the wrong idea. Let’s say you change everything. Yes. And I still have a paper one from when I was starting in high school.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That’s great. So what are you not very good at?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Numbers. Whatever is related to numbers, I hate it.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I’m like, “Aww,” but that’s okay. You’ve got plenty of talents. You’re fine. Let’s leave numbers for someone else.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yes. I married a physicist that now works in IT. So he takes care of the numbers in the family.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That’s beautiful. And if you were to escape to somewhere right now, after months of COVID, where would you escape to?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Or Hawaii or Polinesia. Not far, more than far.
Anne Muhlethaler:
With the intention of never coming back?
Paolo Ferrarini:
No, no, no, no. I like to come back home. I like to travel, but I also like to come back home, but yes, I would go to Hawaii probably. Maybe not for a weekend, maybe for a month or two.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Good thinking. And I really like to close my interviews with this question, which is what brings you happiness?
Paolo Ferrarini:
My family. Family and the people that I have on quick dial on my phone. These is what brings me more joy.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That’s lovely. Well, Paolo, thank you so much for giving me so much of your time today. It was such a pleasure.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Thank you for this beautiful idea of having this beautiful chat.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So I will put links to pretty much everything we’ve talked about in the show notes so that people are able to click through and discover. People can find you online on Instagram?
Paolo Ferrarini:
Yes, on @paolostylops.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And I think Twitter and obviously your fantastic website.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Same name in paoloferrarini.it. There’s all the links and everything.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much. And we’ll talk again very soon.
Paolo Ferrarini:
Thank you. See you soon.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Thanks to, Paolo, for being my guest today. You can find him online at paoloferrarini.com. If you don’t know how to spell that, all of this and links to his Instagram and everything we talked about is in the show notes. So that’s it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. I hope that you will join us again next time. Our theme music is by Connor Heffernan, artwork by Brian panto. Special thanks to, Joel, for the sound editing. You can soon find all of my episodes and find out more about my projects at annevmuhlethaler.com. You can register your email address and this site will be live soon. And in the meantime, all of the links again are in the show notes. If you can rate and review the show on iTunes, it helps other people find it and we appreciate it very much. Until next time, be well, be safe. Remember the hand washing and the distancing, all that good stuff.
