In this episode, host Anne Muhlethaler interviews Tess Privett (@lotuspocus_milano): Tess is a yoga teacher, owner of Lotus Pocus studio in the center of Milan, Italy, who Anne encountered virtually while the two were studying how to launch their podcasts with the help of Seth Godin’s Akimbo “Podcast Fellowship”.
This marks their first time “meeting” over Zoom, despite the fact they had spent a good couple of months that same spring reading and hearing about each other’s projects come to life. Tess and Anne share a deep interest in yoga and meditation. In this interview, they discuss Tess’ experience in the four paths of yoga (helpful for anyone new to the practice), including the path that initially interested her the least, the Bhakti or devotional path. She then offers insights on the practical effects of doing one-pointed yogic meditation, like Japa, which she teaches, and shares a personal story about the joy one can feel while chopping an onion!
Tess has a deep love of yoga philosophy and she talks about her dharma and how she strives to make the canonical texts practical for everyday, which is the underlying purpose of her podcast, Yoggi(Yoga Oggi = yoga today).
If you like yoga, and perhaps philosophy, and speak Italian, jump on the link to discover.
A beautiful, funny and inspiring conversation. Happy listening!
Selected links from episode
Metta Meditation or Loving Kindness
MMTCP: mindfulness & meditation teacher certification program
Full episode transcript
Anne Muhlethaler:
Hi. Hello. Buongiorno. This is Out Of The Clouds, a podcast at the crossroads between business and mindfulness. And I’m your host, Anne Muhlethaler. Today I am joined by Tess Privett. Tess is a yoga teacher who discovered yoga in 2000 and obtained her teacher training certificate back in 2004. She managed to do the last teacher training course, provided by Carlo Patrian, a pioneer of yoga in Italy shortly before he died. She is currently actually doing a second teacher training course, just for fun, with the teacher who initially introduced her to yoga, Beatrice Calcagno.
Anne Muhlethaler:
In between these two, she has worked for Yoga Journal Italia as a columnist and writer. She earned a certification on yoga philosophy with the Oxford Institute of Hindu Studies and also studied with Professor Edwin Bryant, a world renowned expert on the classical yogic text, which we will talk about the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali. Tess is a deep believer that by following the comprehensive set of Asanas of Hatha Yoga, we find an instrument through which we can live each moment to the fullest, attaining a certain mastery of body and mind and instrumentals for equilibrium and calm.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I greatly enjoyed my conversation with Tess. We talked a lot about YOGGI, her podcast, but we also delved into yoga philosophy and devotional practices, and we talked a lot about meditation. So without further ado, I give you my conversation with Tess Privett. Enjoy. Tess, welcome.
Tess Privett:
Thank you.
Anne Muhlethaler:
It’s so nice to meet you and to see your face.
Tess Privett:
Yeah, for me too. Thank you so much for inviting me, really.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So first, I want to let people know who are listening to us that we met in quite an unusual setting, because we met on the podcast fellowship.
Tess Privett:
Yes, we did. We did.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Which is the program, by Seth Godin, that is meant to help people like us. I think the two of us too came up with our podcast. Did you plan to join this or were you already midway through making your podcast when you joined with Seth?
Tess Privett:
It had always been a dream of mine to do this podcast thing. It just sounded like such a great idea, and I just had no idea where to start. And his this fellowship thing, just popped up in my email. And I was like, yes, this is the right time. Both you and I managed to get this thing up and running. So it obviously works. It’s really great. I’m very happy about that.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah, you got it up and running quite a little bit before me. So could you tell our listeners who you are and what you do, and tell us a little bit about YOGGI.
Tess Privett:
Right. So my name’s Tess Privett. I’m British, although I live in Milan. I have a yoga podcast called YOGGI-Yoga Oggi and it is in Italian. I have my own yoga studio in Milan, right in the center of Milan in a really little funky area called Isola. My yoga center has been open since 2008, I think, though it was not one of the first in Milan, but there were hardly any when I started out. We’ve been around for quite a while. And that’s me.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So I think that one of the first things that struck me about YOGGI-Yoga Oggi is your wonderful accent.
Tess Privett:
Oh, thank you.
Anne Muhlethaler:
How do you manage to deliver this podcast in Italian? You sound perfectly fluent to me, by the way, but I do love the British accent, which you’re going to have to treat us at some point here so other people can get a taster.
Tess Privett:
Oh no, it’s hysterical, because I can’t hear my own accent in Italian. When I speak in Italian, it sounds to me like I am mother tongue completely fluent. And of course, that just is not the case. So I make terrible mistakes in my podcast. Grammar is a little bit all over the place. But I’ve worked in Italy for so long. I just don’t think I care any more. As long as I get the message across, I’m happy. And I love the Italians, because they really are so understanding. I think they’re so happy to hear someone who’s actually willing to really go for it linguistically that they kind of accept my mistakes, and are very sweet about it. And they also say that they like my British accent. So I guess that’s a bit of a bonus, really.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh, yeah. I agree that. So I was wondering if you could tell me, because obviously I don’t know it, a little bit about your yoga journey. And also maybe tell me a little bit about where you’re from and how you got to Milan.
Tess Privett:
Right. Yes. So just to cut a long story short, I was actually born in South Africa, but I grew up in England. My mom is a Londoner. I came to Italy, I think it was in ’91, more or less. And where did I go? Tuscany like a typical Brit. Everyone goes to Tuscany. And there I met my husband, my husband to be. And he’s from Milan. I eventually got here. And my yoga journey, it’s kind of funny, because I was actually introduced to yoga by my mother-in-law of all people. Can you believe that? They have a really bad name in Italy, the mother-in-laws, but she’s absolutely wonderful.
Tess Privett:
And she said to me one summer, “Look, I’m going to go and do this yoga retreat. Why don’t you come?” And I was like, “I don’t even really know what this yoga thing is.” And it was like seven hours of yoga a day. And I was like, “I don’t know. I’ll give it a try.” I went and I just totally fell in love with it, just like this is for me. And luckily, my teacher had a yoga studio really close to my house in Milan, because the actual yoga retreat was in Tuscany. So I just ended up going like three or four times a week. And it all spiraled from there, really.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So I’d love to know what kind of yoga you teach, and where you actually did your training, and where did your heart go with yoga? Because I think a lot of people start, at least nowadays, or the way I started was through asana practice. Actually I fell in love with yoga because of Savasana.
Tess Privett:
Yeah, I get you on that.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I actually follow this meditation teacher called Sally Kempton, and I saw her interview on an YouTube video, and she said something very similar. And I was like, yes, great minds think alike. This is where my journey started. But I feel like you have a deep connection to the more intellectual, philosophical and devotional side of yoga. And I think this is something that doesn’t necessary get talked about so openly in a lot of yoga studios.
Tess Privett:
Yeah, that’s a really good point. Like you, I also started with pure asana practice, postural yoga, which is a great thing. And I just think it really sparked off this kind of spiral. Suddenly, I began to find a little bit of connection with my body and with my mind, and that was really what started things off for me. So I think postural yoga is a great gateway. I totally understand why, and especially the devotional side of yoga, because people are not going to come into a center to learn about God or to learn about faith or the divine, people generally don’t come to yoga centers to do that. However, that is a huge part of it for me, that has become a very big part of it.
Tess Privett:
What I found was reading up on it, that there are four different paths of yoga, and one is actually this Bhakti. And I was practicing the first three, doing my best in the most imperfect way, but I was really giving it my all. And the Bhakti side, the devotional side, I was like, this is not for me. And also, I grew up in a family where one of my grandmothers was a strict Catholic. Another one was almost an Orthodox Jew. And my stepfather was a Muslim. So there was this huge interplay of religions in my upbringing. But unfortunately, I say unfortunately, no one ever mentioned anything about spirituality or religions. It’s almost as if they didn’t want to step on each other’s toes, they didn’t want to.
Tess Privett:
So I grew up in this kind of spiritual desert, really, which is great on one side, and not so great on the other. On one hand, it left me with a clean slate so that when I got to Bhakti Yoga, I was totally up for anything. I was like, I’ll give it a go. I thought, what have I got to lose? Whereas, if perhaps my Catholic grandmother had insisted with her religion with me, I possibly would have had, forgive me for saying this, a kind of negative version of the divine with which to battle against. I had nothing to compare it with. So that was great. On the negative side, it was a desert. It was the spiritual desert. It was kind of a shame. Maybe I would have got into it a little bit earlier on, but I didn’t. So I thought I’m a yoga teacher. I’m trying to do this three paths of yoga…
Anne Muhlethaler:
Would you mind telling our listeners a little bit about the first three parts of yoga?
Tess Privett:
Sure, sure. So there’s Raja Yoga, which is the meditative side of yoga. So I meditate every day. That’s kind of the Patanjali side of things. Then we have Jnana Yoga, which is great for intellectuals. It’s really about gaining knowledge of your real self, your real true nature. They send some script prakriti. It has nothing to do with what we see or what we can actually feel, but it’s something far more profound. So we’re talking about our Atman, which is this our true nature, our true self, which is untouchable. It’s pure part of ourselves, if you like. So Jnana Yoga is really great for those who are more intellectual and are into reading about the philosophy, etc, etc.
Tess Privett:
Then we have Karma Yoga, which I really love, which is really about being fully active in the world, but without seeking rewards for what you do. So you’re not looking for personal gain in what you’re… You’re just trying to live your Dharma to the best of your ability, if I really want to sum it up, very sort of succinct way.
Tess Privett:
And then we have Bhakti Yoga, which is the devotional path. And I say Bhakti Yoga, I’m not part of any tradition. And in fact, I think one of the things that I would like to do is to render people kind of independent. You can have faith without necessarily being part of a traditional group of any kind. We can be in the Sangha, is great. Having a group where you have like-minded people can be extremely powerful, but it’s not a necessity. So these are basically the four different parts of yoga. And yes, as a yoga teacher, I am going to try Bhakti. I am going to do this thing. And I did it and it’s just become one of the paths that I love the most. Yeah, that’s given me so much. Really, really given me a lot.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That’s wonderful. I, completely by chance, when I decided to do my Yoga Teacher Training, I landed in Bhakti lineage.
Tess Privett:
Did you? how did it go? Did it freak you out?
Anne Muhlethaler:
No. So you see, I study philosophy at university in Geneva.
Tess Privett:
Wow. Wonderful.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And so I am the child of a mother who is the biggest atheist you could ever meet in my life, and a father who had a very strong appeal for both devotion and mysticism. He was protestant, but then married his first wife… Sorry, he was Jewish. My family is Jewish. I think he found a lot of solace in the mysticism of the practice, Jewish faith. So it was an interesting thing to see a father who-
Tess Privett:
He could still balance.
Anne Muhlethaler:
… always had a very high spiritual aspirations that were absolutely quenched by both his wives.
Tess Privett:
Isn’t that funny? Yeah, and who are you most influenced by do you think?
Anne Muhlethaler:
I take after him a lot. I think the beauty for my brother and I is that my parents, very much like you, we were left rather untouched. They said we didn’t have to get christened. He wanted to leave us free to make our choice. So I think that this spiritual aspiration, there was always a pull on me. And so it was a huge surprise to discover this Bhakti path and to go into the cosmology and the philosophy and to find myself absolutely feeling at home.
Tess Privett:
Wow. Isn’t that amazing?
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yes. Also, because it’s fascinatingly random. I don’t really believe in coincidences. But it wasn’t an advertised part of the course. It was called awakening the heart. So maybe this is the piece that hooked me in. That the fact that it was in Ibiza and that the teacher became very, very highly recommended by someone I respected greatly.
Tess Privett:
Right. That’s great. Yeah, it’s so interesting, because I think there’s a lot of pushback, because we do have this idea from our Abrahamic upbringings of God being a kind of punishing type of God which is very, very different. The Sanskrit term for God in yoga is Ishvara. It’s a kind of umbrella term if you like, under which you will find Vishnu, Shiva, etc, etc. But there isn’t really this element of judgment and punishment that we sometimes find in our religions of origin. So what happens is we come to yoga, and we’ve kind of pushed aside this god that for us has had negative connotations and then all of a sudden someone starts talking about Ishvara. We’re like, hold on a minute. What is this? No, I don’t want to go back there again.
Tess Privett:
And it’s a real shame because although there are similarities, Ishvara is actually very different. I think that’s why a book like the Bhagavad Gita, was so enlightening for me and also the Yoga Sutra. Because what happens is in the Yoga Sutra, there’s a Sanskrit expression, which is Ishta Devata, which really opened things up for me when it came to devotion, because Ishta Devata means, “Your version of the divine.” It’s like saying Ishvara Pranidhana, which is devotion to the divine, but your Ishta Devata, your version of the divine.
Tess Privett:
Now, okay. Patanjali was an orthodox Hindu. So in his day, that’s going to be Vishnu or Shiva. Okay. But in my day, it just occurred to me that I could choose what I want my divine to be. And so I went through a very methodical way of experimenting with different versions of the divine until I found the one that worked for me. At the beginning, being like a cynical Brit, I was like, “No war. I’m not into this Vishnu, Shiva business. It’s not for me.” I’m just going to take nature, I’m going to try with nature. And so I did. It’s interesting, because I read somewhere about the philosopher, Marcus Aurelius, is that how you pronounce it?
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yes.
Tess Privett:
Yeah, he was actually a Stoic. And I found out that he used to pray. He used to pray to the universe, saying, “Give me the strength, to be able to deal with the things I need to deal with.” So for him, it wasn’t about getting a nice new house, or a nice breastplate, or whatever it is he used to get. It was just about getting the strength to be able to face the day and his Ishta Devata was the universe. In fact, that was something that I use too. I went from nature to universe, and I tried loads of different things, and that really helped. I think, one thing that religious people have on us, and is that they were very lucky in that at least they have a method, we don’t have a method, or at least for me, that was part of my problem. I had no method, so I kind of like had to make it up as long a bit.
Tess Privett:
But whilst fishing from the ancient texts, kind of gave me structure and it gave me something to work towards, on experimenting this path. But also I love it, because yoga is like, “Hey, guys, there is this path if you’re into devotion.” But you’re not into devotion, that is fine, no problem. But we are predisposed to faith. It’s like language. We are predisposed to it. In fact, in the Bhagavad Gita… And basically in 17.3. Now I mention 17.3 not because I know the slokas off by heart. I think as teachers, it’s really useful if we say the chapter and the sloka, because then people don’t have to remember everything I’ve said, all they need to do is go to the text and look up the number that I said to figure it out for themselves.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Sure.
Tess Privett:
So in 17.3 it says, “Our faith conforms to our nature. Human nature is made of faith. A person is what his shraddha is.” Shraddha is a Sanskrit word for faith. And I think that’s amazing. Also, because we all have faith. It’s just that for most of us, it’s in money. I just went to an Indian restaurant last night, and they gave me this most amazing dish. And in exchange, I gave them a piece of plastic, my credit card. That is faith. That is faith, we’re all working on faith. So the idea with Bhakti Yoga is to elevate that. Is to elevate it into something that isn’t material. If you see what I mean.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I do. That sounds really beautiful. So for you right now, I think your connection would be to the wider universe after experimenting with nature, I guess.
Tess Privett:
Okay, with my Ishta Devatas?
Anne Muhlethaler:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Tess Privett:
Well, so I went through nature through the universe. And then the universe was just too big. I just couldn’t fathom it. And then, it was also love, love of the people around me. That also worked really, really well for a while. And then I heard a quote by the philosopher, Xenophanes, who said, “If horses were to have a God, they would see God in the form of a horse.”
Anne Muhlethaler:
Oh my god, that’s the most amazing quote.
Tess Privett:
Isn’t that amazing? And I was like, hello, of course. Sounds like yeah, of course, why don’t I try it? Why don’t I try seeing God in my form? It’s just a pastry cutter in a certain form, but the substance is the same, whether I call it nature, or Vishnu or whatever. So I did. So I started deliberately thinking of my Ishta Devata with a human form. And that’s still what I use, it works really well. And Bhakti is really also about forming a relationship. So how can we have a formal relationship with something if that something doesn’t have form? For me, it had to start with form.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Interesting.
Tess Privett:
So I was like how if I could envisage what my Ishta Devata represents for me, what would he or she or it look like? And I just made a long list. He would be this, that etcetera. This isn’t very yogic, it was just my method. It was just my method of getting it down. And I was like, okay, so this is the form, this is what he or she or it would be for me. And then I started doing devotional things like it says in the Bhagavad Gita. We don’t need a guru, the techs have it all in there. It’s all in there. And Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, “Offer everything to me. Offer me everything.”
Tess Privett:
And so I started offering. I was like, what am I got to lose, I’m going to offer. I have my coffee in the morning, mentally, I say, I am offering this to you. I have my shower in the morning, I am offering this to you. It’s just continual, continual, continual, and it was very mechanical at first. Very mechanical. And I was like, God, what am I doing? I’m never going to tell anyone about this. “We don’t need to tell anyone,” she says, speaking on your podcast. Don’t need to, it’s something that’s incredibly intimate. You don’t need to tell anyone. Just give it a go and see what happens. And that’s what I did.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So I’d love to find out, when did you feel a change after it feeling mechanical?
Tess Privett:
Ah, that’s a great question.
Anne Muhlethaler:
It’s not just about a timeline. Where did you feel in your life or see a switch that something had moved, thanks to that practice.
Tess Privett:
It was when I was chopping an onion. (laughs)
Anne Muhlethaler:
As things go?
Tess Privett:
Like as things go. And I know that sounds bizarre, but I was literally in the kitchen, chopping up an onion, saying my mantra, because that’s another way that I offer. Is that during the day, I just continually say my mantra if and when I remember, imperfectly obviously. And I was there chopping away saying my mantra, and I just felt this huge sensation of complete, I can only describe it as joy. And I thought, oh, my God, if I can feel that chopping an onion, maybe there’s hope for me in the rest of my life. Yeah, so really, this great sense of joy. And also very small things like just suddenly becoming patient with people as my kids, just being more loving.
Tess Privett:
Because for me, faith is highly connected to love. And as with language as well, we’re really predisposed to that. But I think we need to learn it like hatred. You can learn to hate and you can learn to love and back to yoga is really about learning to love. And you know what it’s like when you’re in love with someone? Everything is wonderful, even when it isn’t. That’s what it started to be like for me. Being able to feel joy even when I have to pay the bills. Not that is constant, unfortunately.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Of course.
Tess Privett:
It comes in dribs and drabs. It was really wonderful because the techs sale, the time that this continual search for pleasure through our senses is never going to bring us that happiness that we will seek. And despite that I spent the last 50 years just really trying to do that, and it just doesn’t work. Not that happiness through pleasure cannot exist, because it does, and I do feel incredibly happy when I’m eating my pizza or drinking wine spirits but it’s but of course it’s impermanent, short lived, and it ain’t going to fill that void, and I can’t speak for other people but I did live with a void.
Tess Privett:
I said this recently, an interview with Edwin Bryant as well. We call it a spiritual seeker, and a spiritual seeker means that we are looking for something. And if we’re looking for something, it means that something’s missing. Not being satisfied. Suffering. That’s what Buddha says as well, that at the end of the day, what happens is that we realize that we are suffering. In fact, the beginning of faith, I think, is realizing that we’re not fully satisfied. But spiritual seeker means we’re seeking something. Why are we seeking something? Because something is missing. We’re not gonna get it through pizza and spirits. I don’t know, do you drink spirits in Switzerland?
Anne Muhlethaler:
I do. Yeah, I asked you that question about the mechanic part of the practice. Because my journey into meditation, not yoga, started quite randomly. After an open class on holiday in Thailand, I started loving kindness meditation.
Tess Privett:
Yep.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And I had never heard of it. I didn’t know what it was, I didn’t know was also called Metta meditation. And I have no idea why this teacher said at the end of the class, “Imagine how powerful it would be if someone were to do it every day.” And in my head, I just went, “Challenge accepted.” Don’t ask me why. I was on holiday. Everything was fantastic. And then I started the next day infrared sauna. I don’t know if you’ve ever tried that, it’s really good for detoxing, which is why I was doing that. At the beginning you just don’t feel like it’s that hot, but you have to stay for 30 minutes.
Tess Privett:
Oh, right. Okay.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Meditating during infrared sauna.
Tess Privett:
I am impressed.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Is intense.
Tess Privett:
It’s like a Bikram meditation. You’ve come up with something here.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yes, I might have. Let me tell you, there’s a lot of detoxing inside and outside going on. So I did that. And I had no teacher. I didn’t feel like I needed to look it up, because I’d been taught.
Tess Privett:
Sure
Anne Muhlethaler:
And I have a very good memory. So I just hung on to the words that I had heard Sujay pronounce. And then I just did the same thing over and over again. And I didn’t question the method either.
Tess Privett:
Sure.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So the thing that’s very related to yours is, later on, I realized that I was much more economist. I was much more level headed. Definitely more patience, also patience towards myself.
Tess Privett:
Right. Right. That’s interesting, isn’t it?
Anne Muhlethaler:
And all of this didn’t happen overnight at all. And I had no idea what happened, I didn’t actually do this with any results in mind. To a certain extend similarly to you, I was just offering the practice. Actually, I should say, for anyone listening who doesn’t know loving-kindness, you repeat well wishes towards yourself and others. And in a serious practice, you start with yourself. And he did it twice, he asked us to actually have a smile on our face doing it, which is very odd. It does change somehow the temperature or the moods in your body when you do that.
Tess Privett:
I couldn’t believe that. Yeah.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And then we did it towards someone we love, someone we didn’t know, someone who we might have hurt, and someone who might have hurt us, and then he put it back on to ourselves. He said we had to have a much bigger smile when you bring it back towards yourself, and you repeat, “May you be well, may you be happy, may you be peaceful, and may you feel love.” And then you go towards a group and then you direct it in all directions to all living beings around the world.
Tess Privett:
And do you still do that Anne?
Anne Muhlethaler:
I do. I do. And I try to actually tap into it. I added to other meditations when I don’t feel like I want to do a half an hour of Metta, so I try to do some every day. Even if you do another kind of meditation or breath work or pranayama, or even just a few minutes of sitting. If you pay attention to your breath, and you breathe in, “May I be well.” Breathe out, “May I be happy,” etc. So you know I’m finishing my two year meditation and mindfulness certification with Tara Brach and Jack Kornfield. Invited professor Dr. Rick Hanson.
Tess Privett:
Yeah, I’ve heard of him.
Anne Muhlethaler:
He did a fantastic class on neuroplasticity. And how important it is for us to embody experiences and for these to take hold in our psyche to be able to tap into the feeling of. So the thing that gets interesting with your experience and with mine is that, what I didn’t realize is through the mechanical part, some days, I was able to tap into a positive feeling, some days I was able to raise towards the feelings or the wishes I was sending to people, not every day. Some days it was boring, and I was like, why am I doing this? My head itches.
Tess Privett:
I want to [inaudible 00:29:54].
Anne Muhlethaler:
Exactly. But some days it did raise and is in that moment of suddenly just embodying and feeling in that when it took root. So recently, we were asked to work on a compassion meditation and to revisit the class. It’s funny how whenever there’s great teaching, you can go back to something 2, 3, 4, 10, 15, 1000s of times and you learn something new. At the end of that class, he noted that there are three basic needs, that if they’re not met, really trigger. Then he talks about craving and grasping as similar things, whether it’s spiritual, physical, intellectual. And it was funny because he described them and suddenly, something just clicked in my head.
Tess Privett:
Clicked.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And he said the need for safety, that’s obviously primordial, Connection and fulfilment.
Tess Privett:
Mm, Lovely.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And I think for me, the practices of yoga, and the practices of meditation have actually enabled me to tap into my inner sense of safety, of connection towards the greater environment around me, even the people I don’t know. So like you are offering your mantra, I started doing what Tara Brach called stealth Metta. So when you’re down the street, and suddenly you cross someone’s eyes, or no, just I’m in the street, and I’m just sending this random person my best wishes, I did it on planes.
Tess Privett:
Well, that’s just incredible.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So I wanted to tie it back to yours, because these are two different methods that I think bring something similar-
Tess Privett:
To the table.
Anne Muhlethaler:
It’s like an integration. I don’t think ever quite feels so alone anymore because of that practice. Do see what I mean [crosstalk 00:31:36].
Tess Privett:
Yeah, I do. I do. I think that’s really amazing, and I totally resonate. I totally get what you’re saying, because I feel the same. It was interesting what you were saying about these needs, safety, connection, etc. And when I said that I was thinking about what my Ishta Devata would be for me, it had those things in it. It would be a cosmic force or feel like a higher power or whatever, that would provide me with safety, etc. And what that gave me having a form with which I could associate, for example, safety, but there was huge long list, it also gave me something towards which I could be grateful. So that’s another huge part of the devotional aspect for me.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Of course.
Tess Privett:
So when I feel I’ve been gifted this safety, or whatever it is, I’m not only continually saying my mantra, but I’m also continually saying thank you. But apart from that, I found it very interesting what you were saying about neuroplasticity, as well, and that sometimes we have to kick start things to get that going. So yeah, it will feel very mechanical at first. And I heard of this great practice, which I’m glad I spoke to you today, because I’m going to start doing it again. The practice is that every time we’re doing something that does bring pleasure, which could be like a cup of espresso, or sitting on a bench, and then in a park, feeling the sun on your face, or whatever, and we have that kind of spark of joy or pleasure is to sit with it for at least 10 seconds.
Tess Privett:
So what we tend to do is think oh, yeah, that feels nice on my skin. Let’s check my Instagram account. Instead, what we do is we sit with that feeling for 10 seconds, we just stay there with it. And by forcing yourself to stay with it for 10 seconds, you’re allowing those connections to form the networks to perform. So back to neuroplasticity, so that then the next time it will be ever more easy to slip in to that kind of joy lane if you like. It’s such a great thing to do, because you can do it constantly during the day. It really doesn’t take very much work. And those are the kind of practices I like.
Anne Muhlethaler:
It completely ties in with what Rick Hanson was talking about in that class. Absolutely. He was saying the longer you can stay with any felt sense of joy or love or positive feelings, and you can do this without even being in the moment, if you choose to try and cultivate this. There’s something that Sally Kempton also does, she does a love meditation, on glow, for example, which is incredibly similar to what Rick Hanson had tried us. The idea is to let the feeling pervade your body and hang on to that, and feel it where is it in your body. And the longer you do that, the more you’ll be able to connect to it.
Anne Muhlethaler:
But he also said something interesting, which I think why these practices are so important. He offered that as a survival mechanism. We tend to remember the negative experiences more than the positive. We’re Velcro for the bad Teflon for the good. Through these positive devotional or other means to enhance one’s good bias, we actually just become more balanced, simply. We just revert back to more even playing. So I was wondering, you did mention to me that during the lockdown in Milan, you offered a Japa meditation on a daily basis for groups every morning.
Tess Privett:
Yeah, I offered Japa meditation. Japa meditation is kind of yogic meditation. And it’s funny because mindfulness and Metta, Vipassana really got a big foothold in even the yogic world. And I remember when I started doing yoga, and I became very interested in meditation, and I did research on it. All I was getting was Vipassana and Metta, and I did a lot of that. And it was great. Japa is more yogic, it’s what is described in Patanjali Yoga Sutra, and in the Bhagavad Gita. So there’s an incredibly rich tradition of meditation offered through the canonical yoga texts which, I don’t know why they’re not really used that much. Not that there’s a right or wrong, absolutely. And Japa meditation is basically the repetition of your mantra very, very slightly ‘sottovoce’ (laughs)
Anne Muhlethaler:
’A voix basse’ Thanks, you just managed to do it in two different languages, than the right one.
Tess Privett:
Not the right one. Yeah, fantastic.
Anne Muhlethaler:
With a low voice.
Tess Privett:
Yeah, kind of almost whispering. So yes, what I would do is I would do the Japa and then the people who were with me on Zoom would follow me with that very, very simply. Now, basically, I think meditation can be split into two parts. So there’s one kind of open awareness meditation, which is very Vipassana and mindfulness, whereas yogic meditation is more closed, focused meditation. So we’re really talking about one pointedness. And that is what Japa is.
Tess Privett:
Whereas with mindfulness, for example, whatever emotions or whatever kind of light comes into your mind, you recognize that and then you allow that to pass through, whereas we’re not doing this open awareness thing. We’re really, really trying to concentrate on one specific point. But saying that, that’s really quite an advanced practice. Is also for me Saguna meditation, which is, I do have a devotional aspect to it as well. So when I say my mantra, I really try and bring my attention to the area around the heart, I will close my eyes, I have to sum all these image of my Ishta Devata, and I will try and bring that to mind.
Tess Privett:
So for now, mine’s kind of three pointed instead of one pointed, but I will get there slowly. So I was just doing. It’s very simple. You just keep saying this mantra and bringing your mind back to the mantra, back to the mantra continually. And the mantra is great, because it’s something that’s been used for 1000s of years to gain lovely spell your awakening. So it’s turbocharged. So that’s how I think of it, it’s got a really good reputation of getting people to this point. So I’m going to use it.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Would you tell us the mantra?
Tess Privett:
Right. I actually have two. The one that I did with my students was [foreign language 00:38:33] which means I pay homage to Krishna. But I also really like the Hare Krishna mantra as well, which is Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna, Krishna Hare, Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Hare, Hare Rama, Rama. Said a little bit slowly and a little more lovingly. But I don’t tend to use that one with my students, because I think it’s got a bit of a bad name. I think of the musical hair and I think, oh, my God, people are gonna think I’m a total hippie free kick. So I tend to refer the other one with my students. But these are the ones that I generally use. And I love them. And also during the day.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So I wanted to ask you a little bit about your podcast. So first of all, you have kept me seriously entertained. I’ve really, really enjoyed it.
Tess Privett:
Oh, thank you so much. That’s so sweet. Yeah, that’s my mission. That’s my Dharma, is to make the ancient canonical texts really integrate with our everyday lives. What I want to do is, I don’t want to wisdom whack people. I want people to be entertained, to insert stories from my everyday life and how the slokas or the Sutras helped me with that. And they really can resonate with our everyday lives. So I guess my Dharma is to make them user friendly.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I would love for you to tell us shortly one of the stories that you might have recorded in the last few months, but in English because a lot of my listeners don’t speak Italian.
Tess Privett:
Oh my God.
Anne Muhlethaler:
So that they’re going to be able to connect to YOGGI so readily.
Tess Privett:
I know that’s such a shame. Oh my God, that’s a good question. Because I tend to record them and then I’m like, okay, I’m done. Okay, so talking about meditation. I’ve been doing the last couple of meditation. And my daughter, she went through this phase, it was really funny where one day she walked in, and she had drawn on her cheek with a felt pen, a circle. And so I say to her, “What is that on your face?” And she says, “Oh, yes, yes, yes, because I needed to remind you that we have to take six Euros to school tomorrow.”
Tess Privett:
Hello. And she was like, “Yeah, because I know if I draw something on my face, that when you see me, you will ask me what it is. And that will help me to remember.” And I thought that’s kind of genius, really. But unfortunately, not many of us can walk around with big circles on our faces. But you could, I guess, if you really wanted to. We have a hard time remembering everything. It’s hard, it’s hard for my daughter, it’s hard for me. So what we can do to help us in Japa meditation is to concentrate, to be aware, to have your attention fixed on one thing at a time, so that recalling things, for example, gets much easier. And then I tied that in with Alzheimer as well, because I heard that when old people suffer from Alzheimer, what happens is they forget their past. And when you forget your past, you forget who you are, you lose your sense of identity.
Tess Privett:
And it’s funny, because we’re all very focused on staying with the present, your past is just as important. And unfortunately, your memories are only as sharp as the message was clear the first time you heard it. So if you are distracted as you go about during your day, you’re losing this stuff. It’s not going to be implanted so firmly in your mind, which is why I really like yogic meditation, because it’s about refining your ability to concentrate. And for us today, well, I don’t know about you, but for me in where I’m living, it’s just like the whole world is intent on getting me distracted. So that’s another reason why I really love Japa meditation. That was my way of introducing.
Anne Muhlethaler:
It’s very clear. It sells the point, I think, very well.
Tess Privett:
Thank you.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I was on FaceTime last night with my friend, and I could see the reflection of his TV in his glasses.
Tess Privett:
Sure.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And he’s watching football, something else. And then he was getting messages from work. And only like a half an hour later, I started also getting messages from work. And it was impossible to actually have a conversation even though we were on FaceTime, because I could see his eyes were darting all over the place. And I stopped talking, I was like, “I’m going to give you a minute.” And it’s not his fault. It’s not even… Well, next time I’ll ask if he can turn off the TV, because that’s already just like one destruction.
Tess Privett:
Hello.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I personally have a good… I know how to concentrate. It’s part of in my superpower is that I can do intense work.
Tess Privett:
Wow, that’s amazing.
Anne Muhlethaler:
For a very long period of time.
Tess Privett:
You are very lucky.
Anne Muhlethaler:
But I also have taken a lot of steps to dramatically reduce the level of interruption. My phone is 90% of the time is on silent mode, you can’t get through to me.
Tess Privett:
Me too. Drives my friends crazy.
Anne Muhlethaler:
You basically have to text me in order to call me.
Tess Privett:
Yeah, that’s kind.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That’s kind of the way forward.
Tess Privett:
I totally get you there. Yeah.
Anne Muhlethaler:
But the reason is I try to do deep work throughout my day, regardless, whether it’s for my studies, whether it’s for writing, whether it’s for client work, so I have to streamline somehow, because otherwise I’m just bombarded, and I’ve stopped all of the notifications on my computer.
Tess Privett:
Great.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Anyways, it’s just one of the concepts that I thought was the most fascinating when I did my teacher training last year, came from the periods of contemplation that we would have at the end of each morning’s sessions. We had some very physical practices in the morning, but always themed beautifully by our teachers, Suzanne Beth, and she always had a point she was getting us to. And well there’s two that really stuck with me, thinking about what obstacles we’ve put in our own way. And the second one was the integration or integrity. They were both terms that I don’t normally use in daily life. But integration felt really important because I feel like we’re very fragmented, like our attention. It’s like I have multiple screens, multiple devices, multiple things going on. And right now, I think that what I’m doing is I’m trying to pull myself together. I’m trying to sell methods so that I can be one core unit, ideally, more or less present. And that’s something I ain’t…
Tess Privett:
Not easy.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Yeah. And I can see it in other people, particularly now. I was on a video call with one of my clients, and I could feel she already has a little bit of attention deficit. And it was very hard to hold her present in a moment. I reckon she would benefit a lot from Japa meditation.
Tess Privett:
Yeah, yeah. Because she will probably, with open awareness, or an open awareness type method, she would probably just get swept away. And one point meditation doesn’t have to be with a mantra. It can be with a picture, it can be with so once upon a time, I think this is a bit 1970s but it was a flame of a candle. Patanjali says in his Yoga Sutra, he’s so cool. I love Patanjali because he’s so down to earth. He doesn’t say no, you have to think of your Ishvara, you have to think of your Ishta Devata, you have to think of mantra. He says, “You’re Alambana,” which is some script for your object of meditation. Can be anything. That’s what he says. Can be anything you like. I love that. It’s so cool.
Tess Privett:
But as Richard Davidson said, this neurologist, he’s an expert on concentration. And he said, this is another thing I mentioned in my podcast, and he’s always getting this question, “What practice can I do that will help me concentrate? What is the best one?” And he said, “The best practice is the practice you do?” Just bloody do it as Patanjali says every day. Every day. That’s a little island of peace for me, I can’t do without that. It’s important.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Is there anything that you’d like to add about practice teaching or anything that you feel would be helpful?
Tess Privett:
Yeah, actually talking about meditation, because what I find is two things, actually, if I may. So the great thing about the canonical texts is you never finished reading them. And so I’m reading them and I’m reading, and new things come up every day. Now, I don’t know if this is true for most yoga teachers. But I have to confess it’s definitely true for me. With the Yoga Sutra of Patanjali, I tend to concentrate on the first two chapters. And the third one, which is on mystical powers, or a cynical Brit comes out again like, okay, I’m not going to delve in there, don’t want to know what that’s all about. And so I just flicking through it the other day. And I got to 312. And he talks about one pointedness. And he says that, it just means that when one image of the mind is immediately replaced by exactly the same identical image, again, and again, again, a bit like the real of a film, that the image is identical.
Tess Privett:
And why is this important? Because when we think of chitta vritti nirodhah, we think of cessation of thought. That it has to completely come to stillness, but actually that is retard. And I hadn’t realized that. And that’s so important. It doesn’t mean that our thoughts have to be completely still, because the nature of our mind is to move. So even when we’re in a state of Samadhi, which is like the yoga [inaudible 00:48:38], what happens is, it’s not actually still, it just means that there is still movement but the image is exactly the same. We’re coming back to that one. And why is that important? I think that’s important because otherwise we may feel I’m not doing meditation right.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I could not agree with you more. My understanding of that sutra was to try and stop…
Tess Privett:
The vritti.
Anne Muhlethaler:
… the vrittis, which is the movements. I would say the best analogy is to compare it to the waves of the ocean. And that the state that Patanjali is trying to get us to, is to find the depths where there’s less movement, and that doesn’t mean that there’s no waves at the surface.
Tess Privett:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it’s a great analogy. Yes. So it’s not complete stoppage. Also, that’s important for me, because I’ve always thought, oh, my God, stop my mind. My mind is going to be stopped when I’m dead. That is not very appealing. So I really like that. One of the commentators, Ramananda, satisfactory he points out that is rhetorical. There’s still going to be movement. It’s just one pointed one, the same image over and over again. So that was one thing and then just…
Anne Muhlethaler:
Have you ever heard of this saying, “The mind produces thoughts the same way that mouth produces saliva?”
Tess Privett:
Ah, that’s interesting. I have never heard.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Because when you consider it like this, like it is its nature.
Tess Privett:
That’s wonderful. Yeah, I really like that. I’m going to use that with my students. Thank you Anne. I like that. Because as you say, it’s its nature. The other thing about the Bhagavad Gita. And coming back to what we were talking about before, when you said, when did things become less mechanical, when did you really, really start to feel. There’s this one part in the Bhagavad Gita, and basically he’s saying, okay, so how can we be devotional.
Tess Privett:
So we offer things to our version of the divine. And one of the things that he said, which I never got, Krishna says, “Offer not only flowers, everything you eat, all the actions you may, offer me even your suffering.” And I never got that. I never got that until recently, I was in Tuscany, in the car with my daughter, and I really suffer from car sickness. I’m in the front of the car, and I’m feeling really, really sick. And all of a sudden, from behind me pipes up this little voice. And it says, “Mom, I’m feeling really car-sick. Do you mind if we swap places.” And I’m like, “Oh.” My first instinct was, oh, my God, I’m going to vomit. And she’s asking me to go on the backseat. Thanks very bloody much. Immediately after that I remembered, “Offer your suffering.” So I did, I offered it up. I am changing this seat. And my offering goes to you.
Tess Privett:
What I felt was the most intense sensation, I can only describe it as love. And that for me, was hugely important for me, because I suddenly realized I thought, oh my God, if I by offering up my suffering, if I can tap into this love feeling, even when I’m literally not only mentally, but physically feeling sick, physically suffering, and I can tap into that. This is why he says, “Offer your suffering to me,” because it can be an instrument. It’s not our enemy. That kind of blew my mind. But unfortunately, I haven’t been able to do it again since. But I’ve done it once, so I know it’s doable. Yeah. That gave me a lot of hope.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That’s beautiful. I think my approach coming from the mindfulness practices that I’m so heavily studying, I suffer from rheumatoid arthritis. And I’m mostly pain-free through many tricks, especially diet. But when I do feel pain, I think it’s about just being with it first of all, just…
Tess Privett:
Not suppressing it.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Trying to listen to my body actually, maybe trying to speak to me. And then you’re trying to send some love that way.
Tess Privett:
Yeah, that’s interesting. That’s another take on it. She’s gorgeous too.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Thank you so much for your time today.
Tess Privett:
No. Thanks to you Anne.
Anne Muhlethaler:
This has been so much fun. May I ask you two or three extra quick fire questions?
Tess Privett:
Yes, of course.
Anne Muhlethaler:
What is your favorite word?
Tess Privett:
Right. That’s interesting, because it’s not one that would probably pop into one’s mind. But with the podcast thing, what I did is I got my students. I said, “Look, if anyone would like to just give me a little bit of an audio review that I can put on my podcast. So my students would basically say, oh yeah, I like going to test because of this and because of that.” And one of my students used a word, which I just think it was such a compliment. She said, in Italian, it is ‘disinteressato’ which is disinterested. And I know that sounds kind of like negative, it sounds like uninterested but it’s actually very, very different. It’s not having any vested interest. And that for me, is what Karma Yoga is. And that is why it was such a beautiful thing to say because that is what I’m trying to do. Such a compliment. Yeah.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I feel like the French word has much more weight. We say ‘désintéressé’. So when you offer something in a way ‘désintéressé’ it’s without self interest.
Tess Privett:
Exactly. Thank you.
Anne Muhlethaler:
The French term resonate for me, the English word doesn’t.
Tess Privett:
Doesn’t. It doesn’t.
Anne Muhlethaler:
It doesn’t say. It doesn’t hold that meaning.
Tess Privett:
That weight. Yeah. And that is Karma Yoga.
Anne Muhlethaler:
What sound or noise do you love?
Tess Privett:
Oh, that’s funny. I really love hearing the sound of the front door as it opens when my teenage daughters come back from a night out on the town, that is my favorite noise. Especially if she comes back punctually when I asked her to, that’s a great noise. Yeah.
Anne Muhlethaler:
A favorite curse word. It can be in Italian if you want.
Tess Privett:
Oh, mama. What do you, let me think about that. Okay, ‘cazzo’ is a great word. What can I say? It’s an Italian word. It’s an Italian curse word. I’m sure you know that.
Anne Muhlethaler:
It’s a good one.
Tess Privett:
It does it for me.
Anne Muhlethaler:
And then the last thing I would ask is, what would you say to your younger self? Send yourself a message.
Tess Privett:
Not to give so much weight to fear, I think would probably be a big one. Because before you were talking about obstacles, and for me fears is a huge obstacle. Just to give fear the right weight. It’s like an overprotective grandmother saying, it’s okay. Just please don’t do this. Please don’t do this because it’s bad for you. I can understand it. It comes from a place of wanting to protect, but it doesn’t help me on my evolutionary path. So I guess it would be, “Don’t take your fears quite so seriously.” Or yourself really. I think that’s what it would be.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Thank you. And I forgot one, what brings you happiness?
Tess Privett:
What just pops into my mind now is my kids. And I love it, because they really make fun of me. I’m all into this kind of like, okay, after dinner, I’m going to read a poem, and their eyes roll up towards the ceiling. And they really, we say in English, they really take the mick out of me. And I don’t know, that just brings me so much joy. And also physically, like I’d be lying on the sofa. And then one of my daughters will lie on top of me, and then the other one will lie on top of me. And then my husband will come and lie on top of her. And even though I can’t actually breathe, is something so loving about that. And my friends as well bring me so much happiness, really.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Tess Privett:
Thank you. Thank you so much Anne for having me on.
Anne Muhlethaler:
It’s such a fun conversation!
Tess Privett:
It’s been really good. And It’s a bit embarrassing how pleasurable it is to talk about oneself over time. It’s not very yogic. No, it’s been really fun. Thank you so much for inviting me.
Anne Muhlethaler:
You’re welcome. So would you mind telling our listeners where they can find you online at the moment.
Tess Privett:
So yoga studio for those who might be in the Milan area. Is called Lotus Pocus. My website is lotuspocus.com. I do actually give one yoga class in English, which is available once a week on Zoom. And what I tend to do is the first five minutes, I will dedicate it to something that has to do with the ancient yogic texts. But I try and make it fun and I tie it into my everyday life. And then I just do Hatha practice. So if anyone would like to join, that would be great, you can contact me. My email is tess@lotuspocus.com. So they’d be very welcome.
Anne Muhlethaler:
That’s great. And you’re on Instagram as well, Lotus Pocus.
Tess Privett:
Yeah, lotuspocus_milano.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Okay. I’ll put all of that in the show notes, as well as some references of the sutra as we’ve talked about, and some of the various teachers we mentioned. In case anybody feels excited about our conversation as we are.
Tess Privett:
Who knows, who knows? Cross fingers. No, that would be great. Thank you.
Anne Muhlethaler:
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much.
Tess Privett:
Thanks Anne. Hope to see you soon. Hope to see you in Milan one of these days.
Anne Muhlethaler:
I hope so too. Thanks so much to Tess for joining me today. Links to connect with her, as well as details from our conversation are all in the show notes. So that’s it for this episode. Thank you for listening, and I hope you’ll join us again next time. Our theme music is by Connor Heffernan, artwork by the wonderful Brian Ponto. Special things to John North for sound editing. And you can still find all of my episodes and more about my project at annevmuhlethaler.com. Actually, you can check that out in the show notes if you don’t know how to spell my name. If you can, rate and review the show on iTunes, it helps other people find it. And we appreciate it very much. Until next time, be well, be safe. Thank you.
